The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Questions About Character Builds, Build Critiques, and Build Sharing

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Karond
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The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by Karond »

I've had dozens upon dozens of tells over the last months with people asking me about dwarven defender builds, and many specifically what build my character Grimm Oathbreaker has. So here I give in and explain my reasoning for this build, which I believe is the best and ultimate tank out there, a build that only I currently play. Hopefully it can foster some more dwarves on the server :)

The Basic Build

14 Fighter, 3 Man-at-arms, 3 Cleric, 10 Dwarven Defender.

STR:16+5
DEX:13
CON:19+2
INT:12
WIS:8
CHA:6

Feats: Luck of Heroes, Able Learner, Dodge, Toughness, Steadfast Determination, Tower Shield specialization, Knockdown, Blind Fight, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Epic Prowess, Expose Weakness, Epic Damage Reduction 9/- and Weapon Mastery. Water Domain and another Domain, Veteran Background.

Items you need: Mithral Fullplate, +3 dex item, +3 con item, +3 str item and a +3 wis amulet that you won't wear, plus AC equipment.

Skills: Tumble and Spellcraft at 30, Heal at 25, UMD at 12.

Vitals without any items:
  • Fortitude 27, Reflex 11, Will 28.
  • HP 500
  • AC 19

Defence:

This build has 1 more AC than the usual strong DD builds, like AK3/M3 or BoG3/R3, thanks to Man-at-Arms shield bonus. This enables the build to reach 63 AC with +4 AC equipment and self-supporting wands. Improved Uncanny Dodge gives the build immunity to sneak attacks against enemies with less than 14 sneak attack class levels, and the 15 DR will eliminate alot of damage that do manage to get past the AC.

The saves with items reach mid 30's for Fortitude and Will, with a staggering +8 extra to saves vs spells, and this makes the build almost impossible to hurt with DC spells. Reflex is a weakness, but evasion is there and most evasion spells only deal damage and can thus be absorbed easily with the HP (580 for me with items). The Heal skill is almost maxed, and it's use twice per round will heal you up in no time without losing defensive stance.

As if this was not enough, equip that +3 WIS amulet just before resting, and you can cast a 30 min long conviction (+2 universal saves) and a 48 min long endure elements (20 temporary HP vs elemental damage).


Offence:

The build has all the weapon feats except supremacy, and reaches a decent offensive potential at 45 AB unbuffed. The man-at-arms challenge feat have infinite uses, and grants +1 AB, +1 damage and +1 will saves, and you can use it before each encounter to get an extra edge. Knockdown provides useful help vs anything not melee-focused, and expose weakness is as everyone knows, OP. Use a keen edge or weapon of impact wand to get the benefit of improved critical.

Utility:

The build can use all wands, but since it's also a cleric it can use all cleric scrolls without a UMD check. This means that you can use wands of freedom of movement and deathward combined with stonebody scrolls to give the build more immunities and immunity to critical hits if needed. More importantly, you can use ethereal jaunt scrolls even in combat and never fail in the rare occassion that you can't fight your way out. Other useful scrolls are Energy Drain, Energy Immunity and Spell Mantle. Note also that while many characters take the minimum amount of UMD to allow for wands, these characters lose out as soon as they're drained, cursed or such, as then UMD will get lower and they lose access to their wands. But this build? The cleric wands and scrolls are always available, and a simple restoration or remove curse will quickly bring all the other wands back into action.


RP Thoughts on playing the build:

You must worship a water domain deity, which isn't that dwarven. It's either Eldath (pacifist), Auril (winter, this can make sense), Silvanus (wild nature) or Istishia (water element) that you can take. Personally, I took Istishia as it enabled me to explain a background as a sailor to get to BG in the first place, and cleanliness is a valued military trait. Auril works well too, both make you Lawful Neutral. Auril can give the cold domain for some extra resistances that's very useful on this server, and Istishia can give you that reroll on your already high will save with the chaos domain.

My backstory includes some nasty encounters with Thayans, which employ fire elementals. This is the opposite element of Istishia, which further drives my character's hatred. He will attack *any* Fire elemental anywhere without a single thought.


Other thoughts on playing the build:

Make sure you have 5 Fighter, 3 Man-at-arms, 3 cleric and 9 dwarven defender at level 20 for a level progression. Able learner on the 3rd level.

The build is extremely good in defence, and it shines because it's not spell reliant or dispellable. It is always ready, and can endure really long events without ever resting. The only DC spell you should worry about is Storm of Vengeance, which is why you keep a gust of wind wand and quickslot it. Using the wand will automatically dispel the storm. Against Bigby spells, make sure to use an improved mage armor wand ahead of time if you're able, and quickly hit defensive stance as you see the hand coming at you. Since your AC is so high with a shield, many times the bigby spell won't even take effect.

The stonebody trick is nice, but you'll quickly find that it's not worth it against the bosses since you defeat them anyway (they only hit you on 20's). The dracolich is easily dispatched by casting an energy immunity towards fire, and the Frost Giant King and the demon or pit fiend don't need anything in advance. Watch your HP though, as the latter two will cast a power word stun when your HP drops too low. The stonebody trick can however be used in PvP, but the build will kill most melee builds 1v1 anyway, so it's usually for when facing a fully buffed FS or more enemies.

So why is it the ultimate defender? The build has better AC, while maintaining almost impossible saves, good offense and of course the utility of all the wands and cleric scrolls. This is in comparison to the good DD builds. Some DD builds will lose out on AC, EW, DR or Offense because they choose to take Weaponmaster or Divine Champion etc., and these builds are much weaker overall than the BoG3/R3 or AK3/M3 variants of this build.

Since you can heal yourself well, most arcane casters will run out of spells before you're dead, and HIPS melee often won't be abe to sneak you (and if they can, place yourself in a corner or towards a wall in defensive stance and they can't hurt you). The glaring PvP weakness is HIPS warlocks or archers, but you can avoid a fight if you want with scrolls.

I went from level 1 to 30 with this build without dying once, which included many cruel DM events in which some of them I was the only survivor. Often the high AC and damage reduction will let you live. Grimm Oathbreaker managed to survive 4 Netherese Arcane Ghosts with 2 simulacrummed Grimms after getting held by a bigby until they had all emptied their spellbooks. If you face tougher opposition than that, there is always the use of that ethereal scroll.

I hope that inspires you to make a dwarven defender 8-) :D
Last edited by Karond on Tue Nov 11, 2014 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WookieWarlord
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by WookieWarlord »

You are an inspiration to dwarves and brick walls everywhere.
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TheKai
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by TheKai »

*stares glassy eyed, eyes hopeful*
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NegInfinity
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by NegInfinity »

I kinda hoped Grimm wouldn't have any caster levels. Would've been way more amazing.
Karond wrote:I hope that inspires you to make a dwarven defender 8-) :D
*promptly starts looking for a way to turn it into tiefling*
mrieder79
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by mrieder79 »

WookieWarlord wrote:You are an inspiration to dwarves and brick walls everywhere.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Thorsson
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by Thorsson »

It is really impressive, especially the use of MaA, which I hadn't realised had Tumble as a class skill.

Could you take 2 more levels as MaA? That gets a Bonus Feat so is a wash with Fighter, but it has 4 more HP (wow) and maybe slightly better Saves. Taking the last at level 30 avoids an XP Penalty.
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Karond
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by Karond »

Thorsson wrote:It is really impressive, especially the use of MaA, which I hadn't realised had Tumble as a class skill.

Could you take 2 more levels as MaA? That gets a Bonus Feat so is a wash with Fighter, but it has 4 more HP (wow) and maybe slightly better Saves. Taking the last at level 30 avoids an XP Penalty.
I thought about that. The difference is that this version gets +1 fortitude, while the 5 Maa version gets +1 will save and 4 HP. I judged that fortitude is more important, since that's the stat that keeps getting attacked by shield slam, stunning fists, paralyze or such, where the +8 to saves won't help. :)
DM Ioulaum
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by DM Ioulaum »

You broke the game! :lol:
DM Ioulaum
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by DM Ioulaum »

You'll have to make do with Breach Gnomes :lol:
Ricastle
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by Ricastle »

Dwarves could use a brutal throw build, or just a build that does good damage through stuff or at range :)
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dak12attack
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by dak12attack »

My old dwarf, back in the Ironfaar days, was a Man at Arms/Fighter/Rogue/Dwarven Defender. Very good split, but I like the idea with cleric. 8-)
7threalm
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by 7threalm »

Ricastle wrote:Dwarves could use a brutal throw build, or just a build that does good damage through stuff or at range :)
yea if only stormlord was open to non-talos dwarf

dwarves do have a thunder god, but i think he is an aspect of Marthammor Duin

Muamman Duathal

Muamman Duathal (Moo-AM-man Doo-AH-thuhl) is the dwarf deity of wanderers and expatriates. He is also the dwarven god of lightning, which he uses as an omen. His symbol is an upright mace over a single leather boot trimmed with fur, or a mace clutched by a pair of gauntleted fists. He is a lesser deity of the Neutral Good alignment and has the domains of Good, Protection, Travel[31] Muamman appears as a weathered, nondescript dwarf dressed in plain clothes, usually green. He is thin, with a beard of deep black. He wields Glowhammer, a mace that glows as if were still cooling from being forged. Often, he carries a weathered staff. Muamman's realm is the Cavern of Rest in the ever-shifting subterranean layer of Nidavellir on the plane of Ysgard.

that would make an aswesome dwarven thrower

or you could always make a evil talos dwarf, sigh
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ozmiz
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by ozmiz »

I have been playing a DD build that isn't working out and I plan to start over again (as I seem to do all too often, *groan*)

So before I try again, I had a couple of questions. Does the Heal skill have to be that high or can it be lower? Reason I ask is, no matter how I try to figure it up, if I raise the other skills you listed, I don't have enough points to go around. Of course I could be messing it up because of trying to do it manually because MAA isn't a class on NWN2db.com.

Also, one last question (for now!).
How does it work out without any Spot or Listen? I always thought that was pretty much a necessity with any build these days.

Edit: Added another question; Knew I would have one!
The only deity that shows up in the list for me when I take a cleric level, that has a water domain is eldath, so how does one go about choosing a deity not on the list?
That question would help me on another rp character I have been considering too.
Thanks for any answers.
Karond
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by Karond »

Hello Ozmiz.

1.) If you've the same intelligence score as this build (12), it shouldn't be hard to get heal up to 25. If you're going to copy this build, start out like this:

Level 1: Man-at-arms, 4 tumble, 1 UMD, 1 anything, Save 5
Level 2: Cleric: 5 spellcraft, 3 heal
Level 3: Fighter: Save 3 (pick able learner as a feat)
Level 4: Whatever class you want, skillpoints are easy to distribute now cross-class.

2.) You don't need spot/listen for 99,5% of the monsters out there. As for PvP, your strength is survivability. A melee HIPS user will have a very difficult time hurting you, while you'll damage them everytime they're out in the open. Try to use knockdown to give yourself more time. HIPS mages fire damage spells, so just heal up. A maximized orb will deal 108 damage, while you can heal 110 damage (heal potion) or 90 (2 +10 healing kits) in the same round. Collect +10 kits for PvP or boss fighting. Of course that's if you want to stay around while they empty their spellbooks, you can use a ethereal jaunt scroll to get out easily. Sure, listen is nice, but one has to understand that most characters who focus on stealth go to extremes in doing so. Maybe 32 listen +10 clairvoyance potion +20 amplify wand will help you for 4 rounds, but against HIPS arcanes it's likely that it won't. You can't get both worlds, and honestly, I feel like you'll use heal ALOT more often than you will listen.

3.) Deities are alignment-based. To enable Auril, Silvanus or Istishia for example, you need to be lawful neutral. Eldath is the only option if you're lawful good, and no water deity is available to you if you're lawful evil.
Last edited by Karond on Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Theodore01
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Re: The Ultimate Dwarven Defender

Unread post by Theodore01 »

Karond wrote:3.) Deities are alignment-based. To enable Auril, Silvanus or Istishia for example, you need to be lawful neutral. Eldath is the only option if you're lawful good, and no water deity is available to you if you're lawful evil.
For choosing Auril you have to be lawful evil, as she is neutral evil.
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