Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

For Issues, Ideas, or Subjects That Do Not Fit Elsewhere

Moderators: Moderator, DM

User avatar
Wolfrayne
Recognized Donor
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:21 pm
Location: Geraldton, Western Australia

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Wolfrayne »

I have never once claimed to be the "best anything" on the server. Fury is right, i dedicated years of my time learning the intricate lore and unique play style that came with being a Shadow adept. This is supposed to be an incredibly rare thing at our current point in time. The shadow weave is not something that every common mage should be aware of nor should it be something easily accessed. I know for a fact there are going to be people who will take these classes and grind the last remnants of a serious class in to dust.

Its hard enough to play evil on the server and be taken seriously. Opening up one of the really good Evil classes to anyone who wants to be a "edgelord shadow mage" who cant tell the difference between shadow magic and Shadow weave is just going to dilute an already heavily diluted pool.

And to be fair there was not as many people "applying" to the class to begin with. So i really don't see where all the "lessen the workload" is coming from cause it aint going to make a lick of difference.
Reiker Vexx - "Fortune favors the bold"
Cyrus Raviin - "Veritas Credo Oculos"
User avatar
professiondude
Recognized Donor
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:59 am

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by professiondude »

Wolfrayne wrote: Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:56 pm I have never once claimed to be the "best anything" on the server. Fury is right, i dedicated years of my time learning the intricate lore and unique play style that came with being a Shadow adept. This is supposed to be an incredibly rare thing at our current point in time. The shadow weave is not something that every common mage should be aware of nor should it be something easily accessed. I know for a fact there are going to be people who will take these classes and grind the last remnants of a serious class in to dust.

Its hard enough to play evil on the server and be taken seriously. Opening up one of the really good Evil classes to anyone who wants to be a "edgelord shadow mage" who cant tell the difference between shadow magic and Shadow weave is just going to dilute an already heavily diluted pool.

And to be fair there was not as many people "applying" to the class to begin with. So i really don't see where all the "lessen the workload" is coming from cause it aint going to make a lick of difference.
Lets say a player (new) comes into this server. They eat shar for lunch,dinner,midnight snack etc.

They come into this server with high hopes that SA is available and is easily obtained...it's a locked class...they read up on the locked class and how to unlock it: They put a application in, realize that its been a week and perhaps think "man...this server dm team is lacking...guess i'll try (Insert rival NWN2 server)"

Now let's say that a new player comes in and they're a huge shar fan. They eat shar for lunch, dinner, midnight snack etc.
They're given the class without restriction or DM wait.
Months go by and they're level...25 or so?

and they RP it right...yet no one knows they're a shadow adept...they don't reveal it...they are simply another mage who listens in on the goodies plans..
then one day...no..night. Bam! you walk upon them (edit) Casting Shield of Shadows.

Are you going to throw a fit that they were caught by your lucky eye and assume they didn't have to go through the application you once did?
or are you going to push that lovely delectable Sharran curiosity to the limit and investigate through what could become weeks worth of RP trying to extract critical information to you?

I see RP possibilities open up to a rare evil side of the server and I EAT IT UP. While i don't think the reasoning of this class being unrestricted is really making sense, I do appreciate the fact that they're vocal about what they believe is best for themselves.
I mean...after all...they're the people keeping things interesting, not the players sitting by the fire talking about baked sales and flower picking while one shotting kobolds.

If we bash the Dm Team for "bad decisions" we'll just lose more Dm's who are fed up with not being able to please everyone in every aspect of their bgtscc career.
Zae'lin the blood collector
User avatar
Wolfrayne
Recognized Donor
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:21 pm
Location: Geraldton, Western Australia

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Wolfrayne »

As someone who wholeheartedly supports this server and the DM team (even if we have our disagreements) my frustration is not aimed at them in any personal sense. this is about the process and making it better. There are other ways to handle this rather than say "screw it, who cares" because that's exactly how this is coming across. The whole post literally screams "We don't have the time to support or reward people for their dedication to their RP" The sole purpose of being a DM is to do so!
Reiker Vexx - "Fortune favors the bold"
Cyrus Raviin - "Veritas Credo Oculos"
User avatar
Tsidkenu
Posts: 3961
Joined: Tue May 27, 2014 12:04 am
Location: Terra Nullis

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Tsidkenu »

In ~14 months of running the Sharran guild I received probably less than a dozen guild applications, of which probably 6-7 of those were Shadow Adepts. Of those, only two stuck around in any long-term sense, the others were either non-committed alts or simply faded into oblivion due to a variety of reasons that plague mmo-styled RPGs such as ours. In other words,
Wolfrayne wrote:i really don't see where all the "lessen the workload" is coming from cause it aint going to make a lick of difference.
I doubt activity and/or applications in the Red Wizard front is much different these days, but I think that this change might help them slightly more because the Red Wizards are a known, open evil. In the case of Shadow Adepts there ought to be a very strong secretive expectation
Hidden: show
(in fact, whilst I was guild leader I tried to encourage SA applications to consider the how/were/why questions of their conversion and immersion into an incredibly dangerous craft, rather than the usual loner Sharran trope that accompanies most applications- you only know about the Shadow Weave because a Sharran cultist taught it to you, and a Sharran cultist taught it to you because you proved your worth, obedience and devotion to its doctrines, cult and clerics)
and unrestricted applications are more likely to damage existing RP due to a lowering of standards. But hey, i'm no longer as invested in it (only sentimentally, sigh!), just pointing out that like Wolfrayne said, the 'workload' was already minimal.

Approved biographies, on the other hand, are another kettle of fish and I'm not sure how the changes will improve the overall DM experience.
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Steve »

Please do not lower the standards.

If anything, DMs should be entrusted with the ability to make more decisions on their own, without constant internal review and approval from “higher ups,” and, given direction then “let loose” to encourage, reward and invest in Players/PCs that ARE ALSO encouraging and investing in Role-play, both in-game AND on the Forum.

A large part of DMing has got to be ENJOYING supporting Players RP, and directly incorporating the PCs that are created/invested in, which also includes working with Player Character backgrounds, and gaining a “good feeling” by upholding and supporting Forgotten Realms Lore...as much as humanly possible!

On the other hand, I know how it is: I stepped down as a Head DM because I had 2 jobs and family issues and moving across the world...and responding to an average of 20 PMs a day was killing my enjoyment of the Server, the community. So,self-time-management and honesty go a loooong way for healthy DMing.

Still...let’s keep looking toward quality over quantity!

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
User avatar
Wolfrayne
Recognized Donor
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:21 pm
Location: Geraldton, Western Australia

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Wolfrayne »

I propose an alternative that could be a fair medium ground. Perhaps instead of doing away with the whole process why not create a simple Questionnaire with a little disclaimer that states "this is a lore heavy class please be aware you will be required to the following rules" Ask them to give a little answer to things like "how did you learn about the shadow weave" but not expect a full blown bio/life story in order to get the class.

Something small. simple and straight to the point so any DM can look at it and go "Ok cool they have some idea. lets keep an eye on them"
Reiker Vexx - "Fortune favors the bold"
Cyrus Raviin - "Veritas Credo Oculos"
Mallore
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:08 am

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Mallore »

Been a while and poking about the realm.

These changes make a degree of sense because it really does take a labor to do both the subjects DM Theo laid out. Just think, reading alone and corresponding dialogue between DM and character player can take a deal of time better used on other subjects or running story lines.

I do like the value of character backgrounds, approved by dms, though does it affect rp value? No. I don’t recall a single character beyond my first (and I don’t think I did that either) that I submitted for approval. DMs learned my character by direct question or through events. Same with players. However some people enjoy approval and it makes total sense. It’s like support and I belonged to a number of writer sites back in the day where ideas where discussed submitted and even voted on. What I suggest as a maybe idea, is to enable voting. A simple anonymous thumbs up thumbs down in the character bio section. This way players get fellow player review in what would be acceptable in the shared community. Anonymous so no one can hurt each other’s feelings and a writer will know the strength or weakness of their proposed idea through sheer number of up and down votes.

This of course leaves space for dms to reply if they like but no way need too. I believe the function for up and down maybe in the standard forums but that would be for fancy forum devs to find out.



As for approved classes. I personal never felt the class makes to much the character as our classes are usually at best a sketch or algorithm of what we want it to be. The engine can only do so much. As such I always figure a Shadow Adepr isn’t as much the class but a mix of the class. Role play and community. This being said, if some one wants to roll a shadow adept becaus they think it will min max their pvp (and took shar of course) then so be it. What ever, I say. They are not a shadow adept in my view unless accepted by the shadow adept community. Then when and they will cross a line, dms eliminate the character. They should have known better we are all adults. This may seam extreme. However, it is how self policing works. Speak about the shadow weave your deleted. Abuse the mechanic your deleted. These rules should be put into the character template so you always know.

This is sort of how I feel about red wizard. Your not. In no way ever a red wizard unless the community says so. Other then that you a pretender and well known to be a pretender. This is how community’s self grow and policy. It is sort of how you just can’t be a flaming fist or a member of an actual player guild.

This last point sound extreme but I do believe it’s a good way forward to try for a bit at the least.

I hope many more return and enjoy this great community again
Jane of Here and There (Jane Price)

...also

Jennifer and A Drow.
Zethrenx99
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:57 pm
Location: USA, MI.

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Zethrenx99 »

My two cents:

There should not be restricted classes that require out of game investment. Taking the time to write out a full bio with all the bells and whistles and then be beholden to that causes me enough anxiety that i have always refused to submit applications for just about anything on this server. And infact the only time i had submitted an application was only due to requirements that ultimately restricted our RP and lead to its end. I'm sure i'm not the only person that feels this way and I have been around this server on and off since beta, I can only imagine how a new player may feel. So how should it be addressed? Well IG. Let people play what they will with certain classes having its RP restrictions as all classes do, and if some one is not RPing the class in a way that is appropriate for the lore then DM's can address the character. DM's should be allowed, while observing players on the server, to ask the players questions regarding their character and players should be required to answer them to some degree (Simple bio stuff mostly).

When should applications be required: If there is something that is, or may be considered, out side of lore or out side of the basic mechanics set by nwn2. If player wishes to RP based on whatever their imagination created outside of what is already established, then with staff consensus said the player should be able to. This includes things like: I want to play a henge yokai. or I wish to play a half drow that was raised by his elf mother on the surface but has to keep what he is a secret to everyone for his own safety. Ect. . . It should not be something that can potentially be used to keep players from already developed mechanics or to artificial keep certain classes down to a minimum.

If a character wishes to play a shadow mage and does not have a doctorate in shar Theology, they should be able to. How you address a player that wants to play a particular type of character but might not have any of the knowledge, is to address it with RP.

Also, people can know about the shadow weave without being Sharites. In fact it isn't even that uncommon knowledge among arcanist or any magical historians as the shadow weave played a major role after the death of Mystryl. Similarly, any ig theologians who are aware of Shar would know about the shadow weave since that is basically all Shar is known for. Now as to the understanding of the shadow weave and shadow magic itself, that is something that is only known by the shadow adept. But why would it not be possible for some one to use something they do not understand with the grace of Shar?

That might sound like an attack but it is a very important point when it comes to nwn servers. Elitism is not the way to grow rp in a server, it never has been and it will never work. In fact it is always the opposite, and having a more welcoming approach to new players who may even be new to the setting itself which grows servers and deepens RP.
Keneki Koga- Fighting his inner devil. RETIRED
Emma Sxn'Tubxs- Suppressing her emotions.Theme!
Yuki- Probably sniffing you from a distance.
Varus Montell- Probably blowing himself up with a new bomb
User avatar
Max Hatchet
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:45 am
Location: Kent

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Max Hatchet »

I’m wondering - all this stuff about esoteric Sharran lore - are we meaning anything that’s not on this forum (server lore), in the FRCS, in Lords of Darkness, in Magic of Faerûn or any other normally available source? (Not forgetting the year we are in)

(If we are talking about anything else we cannot expect DMs to know of it?)
Djaimin Shadowcat - Soft hearted archer of Shevarash
Lyra - Necromancer-Archmage of the Sshamath School of Necromancy
Scorpia Lux - Apprentice Enchanter of the Thayan Enclave
User avatar
Max Hatchet
Posts: 197
Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:45 am
Location: Kent

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Max Hatchet »

Actually looking at Magic of Faerun right now it seems to suggest to me that clerics should NOT be able to take Shadow Adept. It says “Shar is careful to avoid tempting divine spellcasters to take this last step”
Djaimin Shadowcat - Soft hearted archer of Shevarash
Lyra - Necromancer-Archmage of the Sshamath School of Necromancy
Scorpia Lux - Apprentice Enchanter of the Thayan Enclave
User avatar
Wolfrayne
Recognized Donor
Posts: 647
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 10:21 pm
Location: Geraldton, Western Australia

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Wolfrayne »

On our server, by our Lore. YOU MUST WORSHIP SHAR TO BE A SHADOW ADEPT OR USE THE SHADOW WEAVE. years on and people still cant get that through their head, which is precisely the reason why this class should not simply be open to anyone who wants to "tinker with the Shadow Weave"

viewtopic.php?f=421&t=53521
2) Told by Random Nobody:
In our timeline, on our server, the shadow weave is very secretive. Shar keeps it that way. Any who speak of the shadow weave to an outsider may be driven insane, stripped of their ability to cast magic from the shadow weave, and/or be killed. Unlike Mystra, those who betray Shar are far more likely to be killed than to simply have their magic denied. For this reason, those speaking of the Shadow Weave must be extremely careful who they speak of it to. Think of it like giving another person all your personal information, credit card numbers, bank account numbers, and the keys to your house and to your car/truck.. You risk much.
Reiker Vexx - "Fortune favors the bold"
Cyrus Raviin - "Veritas Credo Oculos"
Mallore
Posts: 458
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:08 am

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Mallore »

Zethrenx99 wrote: Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:19 am My two cents:



So. What you mentioned and wrote about is true, in the future. The thing about our server is it’s still being played in the past and not in the 3.5 faerun time line nor the 4 or 5editionn. It’s in its own kinda special cannon lore 2e to 3e spot.

In our servers actual time line the shadow weave is known by none outside the few shar has chosen and she has absolutely control over it. So what you say is true. That has not happen yet, it’s in the future. ;)

It is kinda neat because we all know what will become of it but till then we must play it as it is which is as a secret. The rules of which is only shar and she strikes down thoses who speak of it to anyone anywhere for any reason she deems unfit. A holy part of her religion is actually related to secrets and not sharing things forgotten or yet known. It is also looney for any character in rp to suggest or think another weave is possible outside of mystra. There is only one weave and it’s absolute in the minds of everyone. In this time line mystra weave is like gravity. It is law and there isn’t another gravity out there.

Hope that helps a bit.


As a note. I agree about elitism too. Gosh is that ever a problem. But a certain purity needs to be or we are no longer rp in faerun. And if that flavor isn’t there I wouldn’t play here either. ((As such I demand more flavor and more accuracy!!!!))
Jane of Here and There (Jane Price)

...also

Jennifer and A Drow.
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by Steve »

DM's should be allowed, while observing players on the server, to ask the players questions regarding their character and players should be required to answer them to some degree (Simple bio stuff mostly).
Isn’t this what either a Bio (approved) or an Application is for, yet prevents a Player from getting invested in RP that would have to be forcibly retconned if it didn’t live up to Lore?

Anyway...maybe we proles should realize the OP really was a statement, not an open ended question or solicitation (and probably inappropriately posted in the General Discussion section).

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
User avatar
DM Theophanies
Retired Staff
Posts: 4148
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:53 pm

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by DM Theophanies »

My OP was a statement but I do invite community feedback otherwise I would have locked the thread. I understand that this may negatively impact the playerbase and it was a difficult decision. The health of our team needs addressing and we are taking measures to correct. We will review and make adjustments going forward to our current course of action.

With regards to lore irregularities, they will be dealt with on a case by case basis, just as divine roleplay is reviewed currently.

For biographies, we will finish review and reward those we have already recieved but no longer accept any others.

For application classes, they will be unlocked after consultation with our developmental and QC counterparts. I will post an update when I have one.
User avatar
SoThereIWas
Posts: 442
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:04 pm

Re: Changes to DM Supported Programs – Class Applications and Approved Biographies

Unread post by SoThereIWas »

If I may ask, will this have any bearing on hidden biographies support?
Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”