Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

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Hoihe
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Hoihe »

Max Hatchet wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:10 pm My main (30th lvl) is a wood elf ‘guardian’ and resident of EDE but i hardly ever go there. And it’s too far away and not fully open to other players.

I’ve been in Kraak many times and only once saw a dwarf player in there (he only logged in cos he saw us in there)

These two areas are a waste IMO

OK, Doron is used but I think all areas like this should be questioned.

We don’t need racial starter areas and they either just fracture the player base if they are used or they aren’t used

The trouble with guild halls is their use goes up and down depending on guild activity. Like Church of Mystra is inactive.

How many of the guild halls are being used regularly?

How many more dungeons could we have if the inactive ones were removed?
Just because you dont see a reason to use your guildhall doesnt mean others dont.

Doron amar sees plenty of use from elves who are good, or good leaning neutral. It sees a bit lesser use of late, as atypical elves became popular these days but there is still a decent group.

EDE recently had a ton of returning elves. Even before that, myself and a few "dual citizens" put it to good use.

them being "not mainstream" areas is kind of the point. It allows people to rp with those whose style they match, be it alignment-wise or the balance between adventuring and living an everyday life.

I mostly find difficulty in finding rp not from fractured playerbase, but from playing a zealot who is basically a paladin in her standards of how people should act - hard to party up with people your character doesnt trust/couldnt party with anyway due to the whole shtick of "paladins may not knowingly work together with evil".
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Steve »

Max Hatchet wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:27 pm Who is complaining? We are discussing. Is that allowed?
Well...
Max Hatchet wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:10 pm ... EDE but i hardly ever go there. And it’s too far away and not fully open to other players.

I’ve been in Kraak many times and only once saw a dwarf player in there (he only logged in cos he saw us in there)

These two areas are a waste IMO


We don’t need racial starter areas and they either just fracture the player base if they are used or they aren’t used

The trouble with guild halls is...
My apologies if I didn't read this correctly, in that you are not complaining about a waste of space....

Why poop in other people's backyard?!?

Additionally, the namesake of this Server is even underused!! Essentially, a fair argument can be made that any Area(s) that isn't in the current fashion or is being highlighted by DM Events, is going to be underused. All except for traditional grind-lootz areas, those never go out of style.

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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Max Hatchet »

Steve wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:23 pm
Max Hatchet wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:27 pm Who is complaining? We are discussing. Is that allowed?
Well...
Max Hatchet wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 3:10 pm ... EDE but i hardly ever go there. And it’s too far away and not fully open to other players.

I’ve been in Kraak many times and only once saw a dwarf player in there (he only logged in cos he saw us in there)

These two areas are a waste IMO


We don’t need racial starter areas and they either just fracture the player base if they are used or they aren’t used

The trouble with guild halls is...
My apologies if I didn't read this correctly, in that you are not complaining about a waste of space....

Why poop in other people's backyard?!?

Additionally, the namesake of this Server is even underused!! Essentially, a fair argument can be made that any Area(s) that isn't in the current fashion or is being highlighted by DM Events, is going to be underused. All except for traditional grind-lootz areas, those never go out of style.
:roll:

Yes. You read it incorrectly. I think underused areas are a waste. Am I not allowed to say that?

Stop flaming
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Max Hatchet »

As far as the Underdark goes there are multiple people logged into the Underdark every day

I'm logged in now and 6 of the 34 people visible are in the Underdark which is a good 20%
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Steve »

Max Hatchet wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:32 pm :roll:

Yes. You read it incorrectly. I think underused areas are a waste. Am I not allowed to say that?

Stop flaming
Maybe it's simply best to ask if those Areas you deem are a waste, are actually a waste to others.

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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Max Hatchet »

Steve wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:01 pm
Max Hatchet wrote: Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:32 pm :roll:

Yes. You read it incorrectly. I think underused areas are a waste. Am I not allowed to say that?

Stop flaming
Maybe it's simply best to ask if those Areas you deem are a waste, are actually a waste to others.
thats what a discussion is for. this is why we have a thread. people are giving opinions. stop telling people not to have opinions

how about you contribute to the discussion rather than tell people what they can and cannot say?
Last edited by Max Hatchet on Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Max Hatchet »

Also... i would make Baldurs Gate - the city - TWICE as big... make it a real place to wander and explore and get lost in with more dark winding alleys
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Steve »

Here is my contribution, then, Max old boy: You are wrong...about the Areas you deem a waste of Server space.

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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Planehopper »

Going to go ahead and lock this, since youd rather argue about arguing than discuss things like adults.

I'll unlock this tomorrow and see if it's any better. Staff discusses this issue regularly, it would be nice to have player input. But this ain't it.
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

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Unlocking at Rask's request.

I expect this to stay on topic now. If you cant help yourself, do it in PMs. Ye hath been warned.
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by K'yon Oblodra »

I gotta say I like having a lot of areas.

Beginning of Joke Although I think the surface could be removed Joke Ending

I really like to discover all these interesting locations that have been created over the years, for my character of course it is more the magically relevant areas like the Netherese Ruins or Durlags for instance but every character might have their own interest depending on what might be the focus of their RP.

The areas that I would consider amongst the most interesting are those that have a rather large difficulty to them because they enforce me getting a group together to discover them and on top of that make it more interesting to go their while being in a group.

If things are too easy when in a group or also ruins some of the excitement. Something that added to yesterday's fun was the high level quests in durlag's, that was a first for me and thanks to the challenge they initially offered it again added to the excitement.

Maybe that is something that could be added to some of the more remote and hard to reach areas. Some kind of challenge or riddle or story at the end of it. The netherese ruins in the UD for instance lead towards the surface but nothing else really, while the area is really interesting even if at times a bit frustrating due to its maze-like nature for me it kinda lacked a kind of outstanding event/reward or whatever you want to call it as icing on top of the cake.... Though admittedly we might have walked past it without knowing.

So yea I like the many different areas, would encourage to create something a bit more of a reward at the end of some of them and I am not talking about primarily treasure but more some kind of little story, quest or what have you :). I'd offer my help in terms of ideas if anyone would be interested in such.

On the topic of racial areas, I like them, I actually wished there was more diversity racially and these areas give an incentive. They also offer yet again options for RP, like for instance Artorias Withermore going to krak helzak to ask the dwarven for aid against the Devils. We have so many options to create cool little things for ourselves and our fellow players we just need to use them.

Thanks to all the great people who created this vast world, maybe we should begin to exchange on how to even further improve on it, which areas could need tweakimg, not removal and which areas we might like to see added and for whatever good reason we might find.

Cheers K'yon

PS play in the UD more ;)
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Snarfy »

Rask wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:06 pm One of my main ideas for this, as a small start, is to remove ideally, or reduce spawns and summons on the roads between Baldurs Gate > FAI > Candlekeep > Beregost.

Make all the spawns on these roads CR1 or 2, maybe a couple wolves, or animals ect, or preferably, non hostile small animals and no hostiles at all. Keep the goblins, the gnolls, the giants ect, in their respective dungeons and caves. This will facilitate travel for new or lower level players, and also RP on the roads without being harassed by random spawns. I mean, it is already a bit jarring when you're just walking with a friend to Candlekeep and 5 beetles and a giant start randomly attacking everyone who is going down the road.
For kicks, I decided to make the trek with one of my characters from FAI to CK, then from CK to Beregost, just to see how many times I would get attacked while travelling specifically along the roads in walking mode:

During the first run, which lasted 6 - 7 minutes, I ran into 16 creatures - 2 ogres, 1 giant, 6 beetles, 6 goblins, and 1 tiger.
During the second run, lasting 8 minutes, I encountered 19 monsters - 1 ogre, 9 beetles, 8 goblins, and 1 tiger.

Basically, this works out to being attacked by 2+ creatures every minute while traveling this route.

If the idea is for these areas to be used for more than grinding(which almost nobody does on Lions or N. of Beregost), or if the idea is, at the very least, for these areas to see more than characters simply blasting through at a full run(while invis or not), then these spawn rates really don't make any sense. IMHO, the spawn rates on the roads only serve as an annoyance to those trying RP/move between potential RP hubs.
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by edmaster »

I don't think areas need to be snipped, just reworked, as i pointed out in another thread, Baldur's Gate, the name sake of the server is mostly an Empty Ghost Town, as a hub for Rp, i think it does not do a great job, the Friendly Arm Inn or the Camp Fire outside of the city does a better job of bringing folks together than the actual City itself, I think it is better to *Rework* the City with this Focus in mind and then work outwards, making the Other Towns a place for Quests and Side Activities.
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Rask »

Snarfy wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:04 pm
Rask wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:06 pm One of my main ideas for this, as a small start, is to remove ideally, or reduce spawns and summons on the roads between Baldurs Gate > FAI > Candlekeep > Beregost.

Make all the spawns on these roads CR1 or 2, maybe a couple wolves, or animals ect, or preferably, non hostile small animals and no hostiles at all. Keep the goblins, the gnolls, the giants ect, in their respective dungeons and caves. This will facilitate travel for new or lower level players, and also RP on the roads without being harassed by random spawns. I mean, it is already a bit jarring when you're just walking with a friend to Candlekeep and 5 beetles and a giant start randomly attacking everyone who is going down the road.
For kicks, I decided to make the trek with one of my characters from FAI to CK, then from CK to Beregost, just to see how many times I would get attacked while travelling specifically along the roads in walking mode:

During the first run, which lasted 6 - 7 minutes, I ran into 16 creatures - 2 ogres, 1 giant, 6 beetles, 6 goblins, and 1 tiger.
During the second run, lasting 8 minutes, I encountered 19 monsters - 1 ogre, 9 beetles, 8 goblins, and 1 tiger.

Basically, this works out to being attacked by 2+ creatures every minute while traveling this route.

If the idea is for these areas to be used for more than grinding(which almost nobody does on Lions or N. of Beregost), or if the idea is, at the very least, for these areas to see more than characters simply blasting through at a full run(while invis or not), then these spawn rates really don't make any sense. IMHO, the spawn rates on the roads only serve as an annoyance to those trying RP/move between potential RP hubs.

This is an awesome post thanks for doing that.

I think the biggest and easiest change we could make without snipping areas is to make these well-travelled roads safer. I would love to see the spawns snipped out entirely on these roads, and replaced with mundane animals that aren't hostile. Not only would it make more sense, since these roads are heavily travelled, but it would add to the living world aspect to see just some squirrels or wild dogs walking around that aren't attacking everything they see nonsensically. I think it would also encourage RP on the roads, maybe trade caravans walking horses from Beregost to BG. It would encourage new players who are lower level to explore other towns and options for RP rather than being hamstrung by not being high enough level to survive being attacked 16 times by goblins and ogres or whatever as they go. It would also make quests like the supplies quest out of BG actually doable for a level 1-5 character which would be really nice.

My reason for tweaking or removing areas was just to encourage better "flow" of traffic in game and to reduce areas that nobody goes into. It would open up opportunity for more dungeons IMO but if people arent liking that idea than thats totally fine with me, and I would rather push for the idea above.


There is a NWN1 server that a bunch of people I know from this server have changed over to, and they have NO hostile spawns on any travel areas at all. All their enemy spawns are concentrated either -just- outside of, or inside the lairs and dungeons. This makes the entire world a giant place to RP and play and it works VERY well. Everyone I know who has switched over said it makes the world feel far more realistic and "alive" than BG where it feels more like an MMO with its random spawns all over the place. Personally I think striking a balance between them would be best, as some areas should be a bit more dangerous to travel with maybe some bandits once and a while or something. But after dipping my toes in this NWN1 server myself and experiencing what that is like, I have to agree with those guys, it makes a huge difference and spurns a lot of RP out in the wild between characters of all levels.
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Re: Reducing area clutter + Tweaks to current maps.

Unread post by Hoihe »

Rask wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:56 pm
Snarfy wrote: Sat Dec 28, 2019 12:04 pm
Rask wrote: Sun Dec 22, 2019 9:06 pm One of my main ideas for this, as a small start, is to remove ideally, or reduce spawns and summons on the roads between Baldurs Gate > FAI > Candlekeep > Beregost.

Make all the spawns on these roads CR1 or 2, maybe a couple wolves, or animals ect, or preferably, non hostile small animals and no hostiles at all. Keep the goblins, the gnolls, the giants ect, in their respective dungeons and caves. This will facilitate travel for new or lower level players, and also RP on the roads without being harassed by random spawns. I mean, it is already a bit jarring when you're just walking with a friend to Candlekeep and 5 beetles and a giant start randomly attacking everyone who is going down the road.
For kicks, I decided to make the trek with one of my characters from FAI to CK, then from CK to Beregost, just to see how many times I would get attacked while travelling specifically along the roads in walking mode:

During the first run, which lasted 6 - 7 minutes, I ran into 16 creatures - 2 ogres, 1 giant, 6 beetles, 6 goblins, and 1 tiger.
During the second run, lasting 8 minutes, I encountered 19 monsters - 1 ogre, 9 beetles, 8 goblins, and 1 tiger.

Basically, this works out to being attacked by 2+ creatures every minute while traveling this route.

If the idea is for these areas to be used for more than grinding(which almost nobody does on Lions or N. of Beregost), or if the idea is, at the very least, for these areas to see more than characters simply blasting through at a full run(while invis or not), then these spawn rates really don't make any sense. IMHO, the spawn rates on the roads only serve as an annoyance to those trying RP/move between potential RP hubs.

This is an awesome post thanks for doing that.

I think the biggest and easiest change we could make without snipping areas is to make these well-travelled roads safer. I would love to see the spawns snipped out entirely on these roads, and replaced with mundane animals that aren't hostile. Not only would it make more sense, since these roads are heavily travelled, but it would add to the living world aspect to see just some squirrels or wild dogs walking around that aren't attacking everything they see nonsensically. I think it would also encourage RP on the roads, maybe trade caravans walking horses from Beregost to BG. It would encourage new players who are lower level to explore other towns and options for RP rather than being hamstrung by not being high enough level to survive being attacked 16 times by goblins and ogres or whatever as they go. It would also make quests like the supplies quest out of BG actually doable for a level 1-5 character which would be really nice.

My reason for tweaking or removing areas was just to encourage better "flow" of traffic in game and to reduce areas that nobody goes into. It would open up opportunity for more dungeons IMO but if people arent liking that idea than thats totally fine with me, and I would rather push for the idea above.


There is a NWN1 server that a bunch of people I know from this server have changed over to, and they have NO hostile spawns on any travel areas at all. All their enemy spawns are concentrated either -just- outside of, or inside the lairs and dungeons. This makes the entire world a giant place to RP and play and it works VERY well. Everyone I know who has switched over said it makes the world feel far more realistic and "alive" than BG where it feels more like an MMO with its random spawns all over the place. Personally I think striking a balance between them would be best, as some areas should be a bit more dangerous to travel with maybe some bandits once and a while or something. But after dipping my toes in this NWN1 server myself and experiencing what that is like, I have to agree with those guys, it makes a huge difference and spurns a lot of RP out in the wild between characters of all levels.
Making the "waylaid" trigger more frequent perhaps, while removing normal spawns might make things more realistic feeling.

Something like there are 4 spots on the a given map's road, where if PCs pass through, there is a 10% chance they get waylaid, with the monsters spawning a decent distance away while in stealth to still be able to use scouts/trackers to avoid them (i really hate enemies that spawn at your feet).
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