Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

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Ewe
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Ewe » Mon Mar 25, 2019 10:08 am

Hi guys, I just want to chime in and say that it's not Unholy Sword. The proper name for it is Unholy Reaver. Sounds a lot more ominous, no?

In a back issue of Dragon Magazine (the only place Anti-Paladin was published to my knowledge) it was stated like this:
The Unholy Reaver has several powers:
(1) Imparts a 50% magical resistance to everything within a 5”
radius. Note that the Anti-Paladin must be holding the sword unsheathed in order for this power to operate.
(2) Dispels magic in a 5” radius at the level of magic use equal to
the experience level of the Anti-Paladin wielding it. Again, the sword
must be in the Anti-Paladin’s hands, unsheathed, in order to perform.
(3) Inflicts +10 damage points in addition to normal damage,
but only when used by the Anti-Paladin against opponents of Lawful
Good alignment.
Only in the hands of an Anti-Paladin will these powers and
bonuses apply. If wielded by a character of Evil alignment, the
Unholy Reaver will simply act as a normal +2 sword. A character of
any other alignment so unfortunate as to acquire an Unholy Reaver
will discover that it will always perform as a -2 Cursed Sword!

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Kaeldre
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Kaeldre » Fri May 10, 2019 2:42 pm

Hendrak wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:08 am
Admitted that 300+ dmg is then only for Great Smite V. I find that a lot of burst dmg for a single attack and players will build for it. BG 10 let us have more build options then lets say Paladin 20. I think BG 10 / Divine Champion 10/ some fighter base and add a rogue dip for evasion, EDM of course ;D
I'd just like to clear the damage numbers up. It was previously stated that Blackguard was not going to stack with Divine Champion. Without Great Smiting the highest bonus damage you can receive is +10. If you sink 5 epic feats into great smiting you will get an extra +50 on top of this value, culminating in +60 bonus damage. This is the extra damage any Blackguard would be able to get consistently through Endlyon's proposal with Great Smite V.

It is when you add critical hits to these numbers that the bonus damage becomes impressive, depending on the critical multiplier. With 2x you will receive +120 bonus damage, with 3x you will receive +180 bonus damage. Remember that all weapons with decent threat range like scimitars and rapiers all have a base 2x multiplier.

A Paladin/Divine Champion gets 3 times this amount.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by vexedart » Tue May 21, 2019 7:22 pm

I think paladin is the stronger dip anyways. The summon is kind of useless after level 20. Smite good is useless. Never see anyone apply poisons. It’s still a good prc because of the auras, sneak attack, proficiencies, and access to turning feats. Paladin however offers most of that, and smite evil is actually useful. Nerfing blackguard would just push people into paladin instead.

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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Bobthehero » Tue May 21, 2019 7:40 pm

Depends what you dip it with, with the exception of smite good, a level 3-4 Pally with a 26-27 MaA will only give you smite good and permanent immunity to fear vs the BG stuff (and the BG can get around the lack of fear immunity by summoning his skeleton, casting Call to Battle on it and dismissing it)

Edit: Any progress regarding this?
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Endelyon wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:36 am
Just glancing at the PNP class it looks like the most they can even summon is a fiendish cat/rat/bat/horse. :P I'm not sure that making them into an epic GPB summoner is a great idea or even makes sense in the scope of this class's PNP theme. Metaquad's suggestion seems a bit over the top to me in general at first glance, making the class extremely valuable compared to other PRCs in general (anything that gets three perks per level-up on almost every level is questionable to me from a balance standpoint). It also seems to drop the 4th spell tier, I'm not sure if that was intentional or not.

I could probably expand their spell choices some, but their CL will never be superb.

I played around with some different ideas and this seemed to sound about right to me:
Poison Use: Blackguards are skilled in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Turn Undead (Su): At 1st level, the blackguard gains the ability to rebuke or destroy undead as would an cleric of two levels lower.

Spellcasting: Beginning at 2nd level, Blackguards get a spellbook and are capable of casting first tier spells. At 4th level they become capable of second tier spells. At 6th level they become capable of casting third tier spells. At 8th level they become capable of casting fourth tier spells.

Smite Enemy (Su): At 2nd level, the blackguard gains the ability to smite any target he deems an enemy. For the duration of one round, he adds his Charisma modifier to his attack roll, and his Blackguard levels to the damage roll. This ability has a cooldown of five minutes, which shortens to two minutes at 5th level, and one minute at 10th level.

Dark Blessing (Su): Beginning at second level, a blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws. This bonus is capped at the user's number of Blackguard levels.

Aura of Despair (Su): Beginning at third level, the blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

Divine Might (Su): At 4th level, the blackguard gains the Divine Might feat for free, regardless of whether he meets the requirements or not.

Sneak Attack (Ex): This ability, gained at fourth level, is like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage increases by +1d6 every third level beyond 4th (7th and 10th). If a blackguard gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Summon Fiend (Su): At 5th level, the Blackguard can summon a hellfire hound (which grows in strength once more at level 10).

Divine Shield (Su): At 6th level, the blackguard gains the Divine Shield feat for free, regardless of whether he meets the requirements or not.

Blood Bond (Su): At 8th level, if the blackguard is harmed in combat, the blackguard's Aura of Despair is modified to also give a +2 bonus to attack rolls and saving throws to all of the blackguard's allies within the aura's area of effect. This effect lasts for three rounds after the blackguard is harmed. Repeated injuries renew the effect, but it does not stack with itself.

Profane Strength (Su): At 10th level, once per day, the blackguard may call upon his patron to grant him a +8 bonus to Strength for 10 minutes.
I'll give it some more thought and maybe put this one on my "to do" list. I have a lot of dev work piled up in general, so it probably won't be done any time soon.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Agog_Fr » Thu Aug 22, 2019 5:57 pm

Hello.

My point of view:

I am for the prestige classes to have their best abilities in their advanced levels, not in their first levels.

Two reasons for this:

- A Balance reason: Frantic and aberrant multiclasses such as Warlock 27 / Blackguard 3 or Wizard 27 / Shadow Dancer 3 must not exist. Let these great abilities on, but not in the first levels. True paladins and Shadow Dancers on PC would not be affected.

- A RP reason: A real Blackguard should go to the end of his class. By giving the best powers at the advanced levels, it incitates the players to truely specialize in a RP. They will pick the class they WANT to play RP, not for their techniqual prowers.



Why I think the blackguard class should be made more powerful:

- First, beyond level 3, as it has been said, the levels of blackguard gives poor powers,compared to a specialized class. His invocations are weaks and quickly swept high, especially since the black knight can not buffer them as a mage would do.

- Second, we must consider this: normally, a blackguard played well, it's a hardcore RP. There is no compromise. One can not play a fallen paladin and returned by the infernal forces, being in a discreet and consensual RP. It would be a serious cheating with the RP of the class. It's like imagining a paladin who plays it cunning and flexible with slave-minded.


In concrete terms, a blackguard must involve a very hard social RP, and a true cleaving RP. And in an environment like Baldur's Gate, this type of RP must quickly generate a situation of tension, violence, or even risk of Permadeath.

Image

AND SO,

Considering this important aspect (which the Staff must uphold), it seems useful to me to see it necessary, to give the blackguard a higher technical power.

That's my hardcore RP (or consistency RP we could say) point of view. Some will not agree at all with this idea of a "technically powerful class, because risky to play properly".


Now, to talk about the technical proposal of our good Endelyon on the Blackguard:
Poison Use: Blackguards are skilled in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.
Ok.
Turn Undead (Su): At 1st level, the blackguard gains the ability to rebuke or destroy undead as would an cleric of two levels lower.
Why at level 1? Each time we give powerful faculties from level 1, we open the possibility of pseudo RP multiclassing. You know, the consistent builds to take Blackguard or Paladin just to have Divine Shield then Epic Divine Might. Pushing the dead alive does not have to be given so early. Given at level 6 it will allow a level 11 PJ (eg Fighter 5, Blackguard 6) to have it, and that's enough.
Spellcasting: Beginning at 2nd level, Blackguards get a spellbook and are capable of casting first tier spells. At 4th level they become capable of second tier spells. At 6th level they become capable of casting third tier spells. At 8th level they become capable of casting fourth tier spells.
Ok.
Smite Enemy (Su): At 2nd level, the blackguard gains the ability to smite any target he deems an enemy. For the duration of one round, he adds his Charisma modifier to his attack roll, and his Blackguard levels to the damage roll. This ability has a cooldown of five minutes, which shortens to two minutes at 5th level, and one minute at 10th level.
Ok.
Dark Blessing (Su): Beginning at second level, a blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws. This bonus is capped at the user's number of Blackguard levels.
Especially not at level !. This is THE pseudo RP reason that makes so many players to take this class (what could include me in, we are all powergamers potentially). But a class should be taken, FIRST, for the RP which corresponds to it. Level 6 would be good.
Aura of Despair (Su): Beginning at third level, the blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

Divine Might (Su): At 4th level, the blackguard gains the Divine Might feat for free, regardless of whether he meets the requirements or not.
For the same reasons I wrote above, it should only be given from level 6. It does not matter if for two levels there is no Divine Might. In two levels he will have it.
Sneak Attack (Ex): This ability, gained at fourth level, is like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage increases by +1d6 every third level beyond 4th (7th and 10th). If a blackguard gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.
Ok.
Summon Fiend (Su): At 5th level, the Blackguard can summon a hellfire hound (which grows in strength once more at level 10).
Ok.
Divine Shield (Su): At 6th level, the blackguard gains the Divine Shield feat for free, regardless of whether he meets the requirements or not.
Ok.
Blood Bond (Su): At 8th level, if the blackguard is harmed in combat, the blackguard's Aura of Despair is modified to also give a +2 bonus to attack rolls and saving throws to all of the blackguard's allies within the aura's area of effect. This effect lasts for three rounds after the blackguard is harmed. Repeated injuries renew the effect, but it does not stack with itself.
I like the idea, because it does not increase the power of the blackguard, but it increases that of its allies, invocations or PCs. It is very good.
Profane Strength (Su): At 10th level, once per day, the blackguard may call upon his patron to grant him a +8 bonus to Strength for 10 minutes.
I do not like this idea. Only barbarians must have this ability, via Rage. And the blackguard is not focused on strength but on malevolence and fighting the Good. And then, he already has spell list, Abyssal Might, which gives him +3 in strenght, dexterity and constitution.

Let's not forget that the blackguard is not a real caster.
The warlock can summon a fiend because he is mastering this magic well.
The Pale Master can also do it since it is a magician specialized in necromancy.

The Blackguard himself is not. One can make his invocations more resistant (for example with a magical resistance of 30, and a resistance to damage of 10, but they should not be too powerful).

I think it would be better to buff the blackguard in two directions: to make him looks more and more like as a fiend, and to make him a specialist in the fight against the forces of Good.

So we could give him new stuff like:

- Epic Focus at level 7: Intimidation (for RP and logic).

- Spell resistance of 30.

- At level 8, can launch twice on his weapon a Mordekenkainen Disjunction that will store. It will have a cap equal to her total PC level (with +25 max cap). On high level, which is really important, it's to dissipate the buff. This is the most important thing ! Note that the Dissonant Chord Bard Prestige Class can Use Mordekainen Disunction himself toO.

- Level 9: Bonus Feat

- At level 10: Bonus Feat.


What do you think of these suggestions ?
Last edited by Agog_Fr on Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bobthehero
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Bobthehero » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:01 pm

Paladins have a mean to get +8 strenght as well, its not barbarian only.
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Ithilan
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Ithilan » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:34 am

I do not see the similarity between an innate arcane caster PrC (dissonant chord) and a divine class like this, justifying a mordekain enchant on a weapon, that sounds lile a bladesinger ability.

And spell resistance is a no go in my book as well, we removed it from WoD and AK as well after all.

Sorry to be ao negative but some of your suggestions are simply too strong for a single class to obtain over 10 levels Agog.

Id much rather see black guards pick up things like mocking challenge, extra turning/smiting and auto extend on their useless spells. A bit of copy paste of other classes perhaps but it should be more thematic imo. Perhaps free feint and bluff class skill as well for justification of their insignificant sneak die, it would be more attractive for rogues and ghostface killers as well then, or those scoundrel type high cha builds.

Sorry for typos phone sucks.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Agog_Fr » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:52 am

Bobthehero wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:01 pm
Paladins have a mean to get +8 strenght as well, its not barbarian only.
Ok thanks Bob, I did not know this spell.

It appears to be a +8 strenght and +8 charisma effect, which is huge. But, paladins are not an overpowered class, so I think it's fine for them.

But it's a Good Aligned spell I guess, and personnaly I would prefer that the Black Guard don't get the same kind of spell. Because it's a bit flat as bonus. And it's not focus on fighting the forces of the good.
Ithilan wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:34 am
I do not see the similarity between an innate arcane caster PrC (dissonant chord) and a divine class like this, justifying a mordekain enchant on a weapon, that sounds lile a bladesinger ability.
I understand your argument. He is logical. It's true that a bard is a magic practitioner and he can work on the canvas directly.

That said, we are in a magical world. One can very well explain a power of magic dissipation, by the fact that the Blackguard summons the dark powers, or an abyssal entity, to support him in his war against the forces of good.

My idea is to try to push the design in the sense of making the blackguard a powerful enemy of the forces of good. And what better for him than to be able to dispel the magic that these forces can use to protect themselves ?

In addition, technically, the Dissonant Chord, can use about 4 or 5 Mordenkainen Disjunctions. This is much more than the figure of 2 that I propose.

And these powers would only be available at level 10, while the Dissonant Chord only needs to be at level 5 (and also acquires other interesting abilities).


Anyway, whether via Mordenkainon Disjunctions or not, I think it would be nice to focus this class, on powers allowing it to be stronger against good alignment: resistance to magic , dissipation, magical power on his weapon, whatever, but it does not have to touch on good alignment things (not neutral or bad of course).
Sorry to be ao negative but some of your suggestions are simply too strong for a single class to obtain over 10 levels Agog.
It's fine ! You can be negative, critics etc. you are free. :)

My idea is that it's fine if this class is stronger, IF the player respect the background and PLAY it really. Which means to actively push the Evil Agenda.

If it is to become a class whose RP is not monitored, and just a way of doing powergaming, it has no interest to want to be interested in this class.
Id much rather see black guards pick up things like mocking challenge, extra turning/smiting and auto extend on their useless spells. A bit of copy paste of other classes perhaps but it should be more thematic imo. Perhaps free feint and bluff class skill as well for justification of their insignificant sneak die, it would be more attractive for rogues and ghostface killers as well then, or those scoundrel type high cha builds.
Ok but it's not specifiquely anti good features. And as you say, it's something we already know.

That said, it's a good idea to want to use some of the Man At Arms abilities on this class, because that would correspond technically and in his RP.

But hey, after that, it's something that could eclipse the evil man at arms PC, and it would be bad.

I wonder if the Staff appreciates our contributions and will be inspired by them. :violin:
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Bobthehero » Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:47 pm

I think the last ability should be 2x/day, a paladin can get a similar spell going on for 30 minutes.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Ithilan » Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:59 am

Endelyon wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:36 am
Just glancing at the PNP class it looks like the most they can even summon is a fiendish cat/rat/bat/horse. :P I'm not sure that making them into an epic GPB summoner is a great idea or even makes sense in the scope of this class's PNP theme. Metaquad's suggestion seems a bit over the top to me in general at first glance, making the class extremely valuable compared to other PRCs in general (anything that gets three perks per level-up on almost every level is questionable to me from a balance standpoint). It also seems to drop the 4th spell tier, I'm not sure if that was intentional or not.

I could probably expand their spell choices some, but their CL will never be superb.

I played around with some different ideas and this seemed to sound about right to me:
Poison Use: Blackguards are skilled in the use of poison and never risk accidentally poisoning themselves when applying poison to a blade.

Turn Undead (Su): At 1st level, the blackguard gains the ability to rebuke or destroy undead as would an cleric of two levels lower.

Spellcasting: Beginning at 2nd level, Blackguards get a spellbook and are capable of casting first tier spells. At 4th level they become capable of second tier spells. At 6th level they become capable of casting third tier spells. At 8th level they become capable of casting fourth tier spells.

Smite Enemy (Su): At 2nd level, the blackguard gains the ability to smite any target he deems an enemy. For the duration of one round, he adds his Charisma modifier to his attack roll, and his Blackguard levels to the damage roll. This ability has a cooldown of five minutes, which shortens to two minutes at 5th level, and one minute at 10th level.

Dark Blessing (Su): Beginning at second level, a blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws. This bonus is capped at the user's number of Blackguard levels.

Aura of Despair (Su): Beginning at third level, the blackguard radiates a malign aura that causes enemies within 10 feet of him to take a -2 penalty on all saving throws.

Divine Might (Su): At 4th level, the blackguard gains the Divine Might feat for free, regardless of whether he meets the requirements or not.

Sneak Attack (Ex): This ability, gained at fourth level, is like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage increases by +1d6 every third level beyond 4th (7th and 10th). If a blackguard gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack.

Summon Fiend (Su): At 5th level, the Blackguard can summon a hellfire hound (which grows in strength once more at level 10).

Divine Shield (Su): At 6th level, the blackguard gains the Divine Shield feat for free, regardless of whether he meets the requirements or not.

Blood Bond (Su): At 8th level, if the blackguard is harmed in combat, the blackguard's Aura of Despair is modified to also give a +2 bonus to attack rolls and saving throws to all of the blackguard's allies within the aura's area of effect. This effect lasts for three rounds after the blackguard is harmed. Repeated injuries renew the effect, but it does not stack with itself.

Profane Strength (Su): At 10th level, once per day, the blackguard may call upon his patron to grant him a +8 bonus to Strength for 10 minutes.
I'll give it some more thought and maybe put this one on my "to do" list. I have a lot of dev work piled up in general, so it probably won't be done any time soon.
I actually think its an awful idea to save BGs the feat tax of power attack and Divine MIght and Shield. This class is extremely good in present iteration, these changes makes it even better while it only taxes 2 additional levels on a build to obtain what people presently want. Im all for making blackguards more attractive, past the usual 4 level dip. But just handing them these tools for free seems absurd to me. It not like turn undead was even remotely useful for a BG before hand, it was a pre-requisite for taking Divine Might and Divine Shield, now that is freely given instead. I don't get it, I thought the idea was to make them interesting, not near mandatory for power builds.

The 10th level ability is very limited in usefulness as well, just as the spellbook for this class has always been. Basically its a boss fight mechanic or a way to deal with being overburned, just like their bulls strength was before. Meanwhile paladins cast Righteous Fury and Righteous Wrath and enable those +8 stat bonuses from rest to rest. My prediction is most BG builds will have a 6 class dip after these changes unless build for RP.

I do not really understand the mindset behind these proposed changes, are we gonna give bards free lingering and curse song next? This is not very creative at all, just a feat convenience for builds that are likely starved on that front. Does it make BGs more powerful? Slightly. More interesting? Hardly.

I thought the idea behind the remake was to make it an interesting class past the standard dipping sauce EDM builds, not to make it easier for them to obtain their desired power tresh holds.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Bobthehero » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:14 am

Hence why I suggested the level 10 ability to be at least 2x/rest. You'll have it more often than not and you can save a use for the boss and another as a panic button.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Agog_Fr » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:58 am

I did not understand this story about Power Attack and Cleave feats. They are still required to blackguard with the proposal of Endelyon do not they? They must be!

What I do not like in your idea Endlyon is that the powerful powers of the blackguard are still available at a low level.

This allows powerful combos technically but which are only a diversion of the class, its background.


However, in reality we know it well, the only reason why the players can take Favorite Soul / Blackguard, or Sorcerer / Paladin, it is a pure technical exploitation. It has nothing to do with the RP.

We had to be careful with this state of mind.

That's why I still think that we should TRANSFER the faculties of Turn Undead and Dark Blessings to level 8 of the blackguard. To avoid these easy technical exploitations.

In particular Dark Blessing, which is a very powerful ability.

The idea for me is that when a PC takes a prestige class, it's for his RP, not for a technical bonus.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by chad878262 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:28 am

There are four main changes in Endelyon's post from a few months ago that should be considered:

1. Turn Undead at level 1: Effectively this means the Blackguard can dip three levels and qualify for both divine might and divine shield, instead of needing 3 levels for 1 or 4 levels for both. Not a major change as it's only one level, but it is an important note since it allows Armored Sorc's or Sorc gishes to go something like S7/BG3/EK10/DS10 and hit CL27 instead of the current 26 while still being able to grab EDM and DS. Could replace Dragon Slayer with Dragon Disciple and hit CL28 while making it easier to qualify for EDM, but dropping BAB from 26 down to 21. I would personally think it best to leave TU at 3 so that if you want both DS and DM/EDM you have to take 4 BG levels, not drop it so you only need 3.

2. Free Divine Might and Divine Shield at later levels: Not a bad change as it essentially gives back 2 feats for going deeper in the class, opening up feats to take other stuff. I would say Divine Might should be moved to level 5 since having it at four essentially means building with the current 'normal' split simply means they can get a free feat while still keeping it a dip. As an example, I doubt the goal is to further empower builds like M@A 26/BG4 by giving them a free feat they can then spend to get more AC or other useful abilities. If someone wants 3 or 4 levels of BG make them spend the feats for DM/DS... Give the feats free to those that are going deeper in to the class.

3. Profane STR: Assuming the profane bonus works like the Paladin's unique +4 STR Sacred spell (Righteous Fury), this means the Blackguard can actually reach the cap of +12 STR if using a pair of +4 STR gloves or the BG level 1 Bull's STR spell. Thus leaving it at once per day is plenty considering the 10 min duration. Twice per day would essentially allow them to have permanent +12 STR due to the rest timer being just over 20 minutes at max level. It's a very strong ability and a decent incentive for going fully in to the class.

4. Blood Bond: As far as bonuses to party members go, it's a good one... The Blackguard takes damage, her party members gain +2 saves and AB for 3 rounds. Nothing OP, certainly not going to make folks take BG to 8 without going to 10 (see above), but a nice bit of flavor and actually makes something like B20/BG10 an interesting option (or Dwarven Defender or any other high DR build). Could make a pretty strong tank that helps out a party enough to be interesting. Synergizes well with a two hander build with lowish AC, but solid DR for damage mitigation while taking small amounts of damage gives a short duration heroism effect to the party.

There have been changes in the past that were small enough that they didn't really change the popularity of a class, but gave those folks that wanted to take a certain class something to make it more playable (such as Swashbuckler changes)... There have also been changes that went too far and have since brought further changes to bring things back while still leaving the class as far more popular than it perhaps should be (Barbarian). I would say any changes to BG should perhaps focus on trying to bring it more toward Swashbuckler than becoming the new 'it' PRC. The only changes I would recommend as listed above would be to leave TU at level 3 and move the free divine might/free divine shield as BG level 6 (DM) and level 9 (DS) or something like that while keeping Profane STR as a level 10 ability as it is quite strong.
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Agog_Fr
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Agog_Fr » Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:25 am

All things considered, after listening to the arguments of Chad, I find that the main point here was to make the high levels of the blackguard attractives.

Not to make the "dips" (powerbuilding) not viable.

And I think that with the proposal of Endelyon it will be done.


I just hope the blackguards PC will actually play an overtly evil RP, just as they should like paladins. :)
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Steve
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Steve » Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:06 am

In Endelyon's version, there are also some nerfs (or anti-dipping changes):
Dark Blessing (Su): Beginning at second level, a blackguard applies his Charisma modifier (if positive) as a bonus on all saving throws. This bonus is capped at the user's number of Blackguard levels.
This particular change should only occur if equally applied to Paladin, imho.

EDIT: but if we're talking adjusting the PrC for "balance," then we're also talking about 100% free RCR. :|
Last edited by Steve on Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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