Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

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Wolfrayne
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Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Wolfrayne » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:05 am

As per a discussion that was had on discord i would like to suggest a bit of an update and/or change to blackguards as a class. They are a really flavorful class that has a lot of interesting Lore/potential for RP (the whole fallen paladin or the knight who turned to demons/deities for power!) I want to see a real anti-paladin knight class. To me it feels like its lacking somewhere. People only really dip the class for EDM/DS and some bonuses to saves and yet almost nobody takes the full 10.

So what about giving the BG some goodies higher up in the levels, some kind of incentive to actually put more? maybe make them a Paladin kit with a whole bunch of different goodies to try and encourage some new RP? Surely im not the only person who finds the class horribly lacking? Id love to see a true "death knight" kind of vibe. Perhaps some free vamp on weapons at max level or some negative energy damage/resistance?
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Steve » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:22 am

Corrupt Weapon

Blackguards have access to a special spell, corrupt weapon, which is the opposing counterpart of the paladin spell bless weapon (see page 205 of the Player's Handbook). Instead of improving a weapon's effectiveness against evil foes (as the paladin spell does), corrupt weapon makes a weapon more effective against good foes.
https://dndtools.net/classes/blackguard/
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Steve » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:25 am

I think it would also be interesting if Blackguard opened up Darkfire Disciple, with its Level 2 spellbook (which may prove difficult, because the BG spellbook isn't really a spellbook, compared to other Divine Classes).
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Tsidkenu » Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:55 am

I remember a discussion once to grant blackguards Improved & Widened Aura of Despair at levels 9-10 to encourage more than 3 or 4 level dips. I dont know whatever happened to it.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by izzul » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:29 am

Tsidkenu wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 6:55 am
I remember a discussion once to grant blackguards Improved & Widened Aura of Despair at levels 9-10 to encourage more than 3 or 4 level dips. I dont know whatever happened to it.
it was decided that -4 aura is too OP during that time of the discussion.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Kiran » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:35 am

Always wanted to see a proper blackguard class myself, but I am no good at balancing or making them suitable, but would be amazing and likely spark some interesting evil roleplay.

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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by AlwaysSummer Day » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:57 am

I suggested years ago that Clerics, Black Guards, and Paladins should have turn undead moved to level 5 to balance out Favored Soul. I was told that every class on the server would have to be simultaneously nerfed and buffed. This would have reduced the dipiness of those classes.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by chad878262 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:00 am

We had a QC thread about giving them some more interesting spell options. With Dread Master and DragonSlayer it is actually possible to get a relatively high CL in BG. For example F6/BG10/DM10/DS4 would have CL 26 (with PSC). I don't think there was really any nay sayer's in the discussion, pretty sure everyone agrees there are some things that could be done to make the class a more interesting selection to take full 10 levels without significant changes.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by The Whistler » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:12 am

widened/improved AoD while nice, doesn't do anything to help the blackguard herself. it's a nice group tool but individuals who take the class are notoriously selfish. an improved and undispellable (at lvl 10) spell book would be a great start imo. weapon of the deity and death ward would be amazing to have, for example
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by chad878262 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:21 am

I doubt they will be undispellable. However, CL26 is pretty solid. 28 would be almost as good as undispellable, but BG requires BAB +6, so you are looking at 6 Fighter (or another High BAB class) before you can take it. Thus even with PSC and if another full progression class was introduced (or if Dragon Slayer gave full progression to BG/Assassin for example) you would still cap out at ~CL 28.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by The Whistler » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:26 am

cl 26 is trash for the kind of investment you'd be putting into it. not to mention it's gated behind a certain deity. just triple the class' effective cl when it is checked for dispels and effect strength but keep durations the same.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by chad878262 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:48 am

The Whistler wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 10:26 am
cl 26 is trash for the kind of investment you'd be putting into it. not to mention it's gated behind a certain deity. just triple the class' effective cl when it is checked for dispels and effect strength but keep durations the same.
*shrug* you are welcome to feel however you wish about it, but the solution you suggest was discussed for both Assassin and Blackguard and the answer is "no". They are not full casters and aren't going to be given full caster progression. If, even should improvements be made, that makes such investment not worth it, then so be it. However, the solution is not to make Blackguard in to some kind of full Gish who can get the full benefits of 20 other levels in classes such as Fighter or Barbarian while rivaling a Paladin as a caster.

Consider a B20/BG10 for example, with CL30 BG spellbook that is improved to include things such as weapon of the deity and deathward, among other things. That is just one example and probably would be the most extreme (seriously, it would likely be better than B20/DC10), but you could also consider something that only takes a few levels of BG and still gets free min/cl of bulls str and the like... It is not a good solution to simply multiply class levels by 3 to improve spell book durations and dispel protection.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by The Whistler » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:12 am

assassin is not the class that needs help here. it's not front loaded like blackguard is nor does it become useless after a certain investment. paladin is not a full spellcaster either yet it got its cl doubled. why ?

you might want to take a look at barbarian if such powerbuilds are a concern, I play one and it's downright disgusting. blackguard receiving +5 and keen to his weapon is hardly a concern, I'd much rather keep my 20barb/4wod/6dc split and have access to tumble, spellcraft and beefed up saves. it already has a permanent death ward by virtue of having 40 (+6 from spellcraft) fort, steadfast and a stupidly high touch attack ac that makes it unhittable by level drain.
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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by Hendrak » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:27 am

I think in 3e and 3.5e paladin is a full caster level class not half.

Barbarian is pretty good after the buff and its sweet spot is 20 levels. Which makes it a good comparision to simulate an added 10 level PrC.

I know from a NWN server (Arelith) that they buffed the summons by PrC levels, gave a weapon enchantment with 1d4 and 1d6 negative energy (when you access inflict wound and inflict serious wound spells) and made Bull Strength cast at character level and also add it to your summon.

They also removed Hide and Cleave as prequisite. So the Blackguard has become some sort of Antipaladin, but hasnt paladin spells and fear immunity (which is quite stronger there) but has poison access and strong summons. BG levels also can get past 10 in NWN1.

Another way could be a kit if you want to simulate or take more levels than 10. Like a Blackguard kit for the base class Paladin.

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Re: Blackguards - BG's Dipping Sauce.

Unread post by The Whistler » Tue Feb 26, 2019 11:36 am

just play the original campaign or take a look at this Hendrak.
Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is one-half her paladin level.
I'm pretty sure the answer to my question is "because it needed help", well so does blackguard. I like your suggestions and would very much like to see blackguard become a 25lvl prc, or a base class or even a paladin kit but I believe the developers have already rejected this idea in the past.
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