A sensible quality of life buff to Rogues and their Parties

Suggestions Should Be Posted in Their Respective Categories

Moderators: Moderator, Quality Control, Associate Dev, Developer, DM

Post Reply
Gadwin
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:26 pm

A sensible quality of life buff to Rogues and their Parties

Unread post by Gadwin » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:59 pm

Rogues are the skill-jockeys of a party. They open locks, sneak around, scout ahead, etc. They also specifically specialize in the disabling of traps. If they aren't able to do these "utility" things, i'd argue they are having one of their biggest strengths ignored.

I propose a minor buff for rogue that will please both rogues and their parties- add "Keen Senses" as a progression feat that is automatically given to a level X Rogue. This way, a rogue doesn't have to grind the party's pace of progression through a dungeon to a grinding halt by cutting their movement speed in half by going into search mode to be able to better detect traps in the area (Which is a theoretical situation that has likely never happened, because who wants to go through a dungeon half as fast just to avoid a trap or three?)

User avatar
Snarfy
Posts: 835
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:14 pm
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada

Re: A sensible quality of life buff to Rogues and their Parties

Unread post by Snarfy » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:04 pm

As a player of an elf with rogue levels, even with a high search skill, keen senses isn't going to help you pick up the pace very much... the problem is two-fold: latency, and the range of search. Even when you're walking, thanks to both of these things, you probably wont see traps until you're right on top of them. While running? Forget about it. Even if you're in active search mode, sneaking, not running, etc, there's about a 10 - 15% chance you'll walk into a trap if you don't take a pause in movement from time to time. If you want to know what I'm talking about(and if your character is strong enough), go visit Nashkel mines. The place is littered with traps, and even with keen senses/search mode on, you'll probably walk into about 2 or 3 while you're there.

Gadwin
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:26 pm

Re: A sensible quality of life buff to Rogues and their Parties

Unread post by Gadwin » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:25 pm

Snarfy wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:04 pm
As a player of an elf with rogue levels, even with a high search skill, keen senses isn't going to help you pick up the pace very much... the problem is two-fold: latency, and the range of search. Even when you're walking, thanks to both of these things, you probably wont see traps until you're right on top of them. While running? Forget about it. Even if you're in active search mode, sneaking, not running, etc, there's about a 10 - 15% chance you'll walk into a trap if you don't take a pause in movement from time to time. If you want to know what I'm talking about(and if your character is strong enough), go visit Nashkel mines. The place is littered with traps, and even with keen senses/search mode on, you'll probably walk into about 2 or 3 while you're there.
Ah, that sucks.. I thought I remembered something about elves having 3x more frequent search checks on things or something.

Would it be possible, then, to create a new feat that increases the range at which traps can be detected?

User avatar
Blackman D
Quality Control
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:43 am
Location: IL

Re: A sensible quality of life buff to Rogues and their Parties

Unread post by Blackman D » Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:02 pm

there are problems with this suggestion

one that was already pointed out, it simply wont help in the way you intended it to and no there is no increasing the range because the range is based off of the trap type, difficulty of the trap (its DC to detect) and your skill

any rogue that builds to detect traps will detect every trap on the server, the DCs are actually not that high but still require max ranks because no one really wants to have to wear search gear, but the other half of the problem is you dont know when a trap respawns which is the cause of most last second detections

the other is the fact that keen senses is a really strong detection feat, yea you can roll an elf and get it but it still makes it so not everyone and their mother has it, if you dont know why the flaming fist PrC was removed part of it was because it gave keen senses and just about every detection feat for only 5 levels, which made it way OP along with the fact that there was an excessive amount of favoritism around it also -- but 5 levels allowed any build to also be rogue killers

so giving it so freely was already a past problem, tho that one was excessive, but even if it was a high level rogue free feat feat (bc no rogue would actually spend a feat on that, high level rogues suck at spotting), it simply wouldnt help for the intended suggestion

and no, no one stops for the rogue anyway...
everyone is evil till proven otherwise

User avatar
Kaeldre
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:11 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: A sensible quality of life buff to Rogues and their Parties

Unread post by Kaeldre » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:59 am

Blackman D wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 12:02 pm
and no, no one stops for the rogue anyway...
Gadwin wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:59 pm
Rogues are the skill-jockeys of a party. They open locks, sneak around, scout ahead, etc. They also specifically specialize in the disabling of traps. If they aren't able to do these "utility" things, i'd argue they are having one of their biggest strengths ignored.
I agree with this sentiment. These are aspects that define a rogue's role within a party. Thus, I think they should be encouraged.
  • Open lock could be made more useful if we increase the amount of magical strong boxes strewn around areas.
  • Disable Trap could be made more useful by increasing the tier of traps spawning in some areas.
  • Scouting could be made more smooth by gradually shaving off the movement reduction inherent in hiding for pure rogues.
These are my personal opinions and far from facts. I realize the last proposal may be subject to balance issues.
Lilith, The Sorceress
"To be united by hatred is a fragile alliance at best"

Jhael, The Betrayer
"To believe in an ideal is to be willing to betray it"

J'hannis, The Devout
"To embrace apathy is to be marked by death"

User avatar
Blackman D
Quality Control
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:43 am
Location: IL

Re: A sensible quality of life buff to Rogues and their Parties

Unread post by Blackman D » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:32 am

there is a setting for persistent traps that is used in a few spots, but even if you set the trap off and take the damage the trap stays until its disarmed

and of course any trap with a DC higher than 20 requires the trap finding feat to disarm
everyone is evil till proven otherwise

User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 5529
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: A sensible quality of life buff to Rogues and their Parties

Unread post by Steve » Wed Jul 31, 2019 11:46 am

Most builds easily have enough HP to take the damage if most traps, and then chug a Heal Potion or slap on a healing kit.

It would be much more effective to torture Players by making traps have Saves for Stun or paralyzing effect or Ability Drain (though also easily mitigated), or something that has longer lasting effects that, when combined with mobs, could actually cause trouble for the adventurers.

But then, Players would complain it's too hard.

More magical iron boxes would be great. Make it impossible to Loot most times without a Rogue, and certainly, a value change happens.

But then, Players would complain it's too difficult.

Change the speed of how a Rogue can travel in stealth could help with scouting and such. Makes it funner for the Rogue for sure.

But then, Players would complain Rogues are stealth zerging Areas, skipping ahead of other groups, and killing Bosses who are on a timer, and ruining everyone else's fun.

:|
Storybuilding

|> Henryk UrdeSword of Justice, the New Church of Tyr
|> Simsae OrcslayerStonesinger of the Telormar Gultor & citizen of the Kingdom of Kraak Helzak
|> Monserrate — Circle of Rust and the Worm

User avatar
Young Werther
Posts: 742
Joined: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:42 pm
Location: Azkaban

Re: A sensible quality of life buff to Rogues and their Parties

Unread post by Young Werther » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:15 pm

A trap that cast blade barrier around the chest would be neat too since the whole party would have to take a turn taking damage when they pick up the loot since it's a duration aoe type.
Jessie Neige - Cleric of Auril
Lockonnow wrote:greatest fear like the movie Hellraiser they show you what you most fear and take a Image of IT

Post Reply