Rogue Questions

Suggestions or Mechanical Requests for Classes, Feats, Races, Etc.

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Tanlaus
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Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:25 pm

Hi all,

New player here... er, semi new, I actually played on this server years ago, maybe even a decade, it's been a long time. Much has changed and it's all for the better, everything looks upgraded and the areas are amazing. Anyway I had a few quick questions about some of the mechanics.

Hide in the shadows... In some descriptions it reads that it takes 4 seconds at level 7, gradually decreasing to 0 by 21. But I've also seen it described as taking 2 seconds from 7 - 10, 1.5 for 11-13... etc, down to zero. Which is actually correct?

Also, Arterial Strike... The description reads it can be applied once every attack (if toggled on I assume) and it stacks. Does this mean if your character has multiple attacks per round it procs for every attack that hits, or just once per round? Sorry, I'm sure it's clear for people who know the game better than I do. Like I said, it's been awhile and it's all a bit hazy.

Lastly, no rogue related, is there a quick button to bring up emotes for RP? I thought there was but cannot find it.

Thanks!

chad878262
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:58 pm

Tanlaus wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:25 pm
Hide in the shadows... In some descriptions it reads that it takes 4 seconds at level 7, gradually decreasing to 0 by 21. But I've also seen it described as taking 2 seconds from 7 - 10, 1.5 for 11-13... etc, down to zero. Which is actually correct?
The description here is correct It was changed after the original implementation to give a path for Hide in Plain site like ability for those who don't want Assassin or Shadow Dancer.
wiki wrote:- Does not activate instantly and the character is frozen during the hide attempt. This timer is reduced as the character gains more Rogue levels. 7 to 10 = 2, 11 to 15 = 1.5, 16 to 20 = 1, 21 and above = 0. Thus at level 21 Hide in the Shadows is activated instantly.
So basically you could dip one, two or even three other classes/PRCs and still eventually have instant activated Hide in the Shadows. However, note that it can be a pita to have the delay so I would recommend Bodyguard (Which is a great pick for any rogue build) and other classes/PRC's that come with a movement speed boost if you are planning to have a R21/X3/X3/X3 build since you won't get 0 timer HitS until level 30.
Tanlaus wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:25 pm
Also, Arterial Strike... The description reads it can be applied once every attack (if toggled on I assume) and it stacks. Does this mean if your character has multiple attacks per round it procs for every attack that hits, or just once per round? Sorry, I'm sure it's clear for people who know the game better than I do. Like I said, it's been awhile and it's all a bit hazy.
It has been a LONG time since I tested this, but I found it more than a little useless. Yes it stacks, but essentially you are giving up ~3.5 sneak damage per hit for 2 bleed damage per hit out of stealth. It does stack in the sense that multiple bleeds will still tick DoT. However, if an enemy has DR 5/ - none of the damage will occur since it wouldn't be 8 bleed damage from the 4 sneak attacks in a round, it would be 2 damage, 4 times. This makes it fairly useless in epics where almost everything has at least some DR.
Tanlaus wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:25 pm
Lastly, no rogue related, is there a quick button to bring up emotes for RP? I thought there was but cannot find it.
I think if you right click your mouse there as an option to bring up the menu that you can use to save your character to the server and it also has many props and emotes to select. However, somewhere on the forum there is a huge list of >COMMANDS which are way faster once you remember the ones you do really often.

Welcome back and enjoy the server mate!
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

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Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:18 am

Thanks for the reply and information, much appreciated.

I had a feeling Arterial Strike was ultimately kind of useless. It's similar to what happens to an Invisible Blade at epic levels... cool for RP but their abilities leave much to be desired.

HiTS seems very interesting. Not as powerful as HiPS, but definitely viable. It's a shame there's not a test module to see how some of these ability additions and changes work in game.

chad878262
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 7:10 am

I tested it when I was QC and it works quite well. To be honest the progression should be faster as it's really annoying until it reaches 0. In parties it's no big deal but solo is rough until R21. I wouldn't recommend the 21/3/3/3 route as it would be painful. 27/3, 26/4, 25/5, 24/3/3, etc. Is the most I'd do. So R/GT/NW9 for example.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

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Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:59 am

21 does seem kind of high for an ability that makes a class soloable. It’s almost enough to make me go the pure rogue route, but I think the frustration would get to me before I hit epic levels.

I get the reasoning behind it, just probably not quite for me.

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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 10:14 am

that's generally what others end up deciding as well. I will say there are other ways you can solo a rogue besides HiPS... Wands/scrolls/potions are huge. Note that dedude introduced rogue "bombs" which you can use to blind or slow enemies (the blinding ones are my favorites since they directly allow sneak attacks, but the slow ones are a great way to allow you to use HitS since the enemy won't reach you before the timer ends). There is also still the age old, tried and true method of corner sneaking (breaking line of site). Finally, potions of invisibility can be purchased for 100 gold a pop and thus are not insanely expensive to spam once you get to around level 10 or so.

I don't mention feint because most rogue builds are feat starved and unless going for invisible blade it just isn't worth it in epics where it will rarely land (on the surface, in the underdark it's very useful). There is a belt that grants the feint feat for free, but it is a rare drop and would likely require the trade of some other epic item or about 600K or more gold.

In any case, I leveled my main to 30 without HiPS (but did have Reili's belt once he reached level 18 or 19 thanks to a lucky find) so it is possible, I am just not going to argue that it isn't difficult and frustrating at times to do so. ;)
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

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Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:20 am

Smoke bombs are kind of interesting. Is there somewhere to purchase them?

You kind of sum up my feelings on the rogue issue pretty well. Invis pots, running and hiding, they are all valid, but can get pretty costly and tend to make for some pretty slow going. Ultimately I prefer to be grouped anyway just because its more fun to play with other people, but sometimes you're virtually alone on the server and it's not so bad to go for a little solo dungeon crawling, which is slow and painful for sneaks.

The funny thing about HiPS is non-sneaks tends to hate it, but when you play a sneak for any period of time it's- maybe not mandatory as all options you outlined above work, but definitely a quality of life booster.

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Snarfy
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Snarfy » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:41 am

Tanlaus wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:20 am
Smoke bombs are kind of interesting. Is there somewhere to purchase them?
They can be found in Nashkel, in the shop that has 2 merchants. The DC on their stun effect, however, relies greatly on your set traps skill(... at least I'm pretty sure.)

chad878262
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:49 am

Snarfy wrote:
Fri Jul 19, 2019 11:41 am
The DC on using them, however, relies greatly on your set traps skill(... at least I'm pretty sure.)
They are also sold in Soubar (and it's not just smoke bombs, there are flash bombs and grease bombs: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Items )

Also, DC is calculated based on the greater of your set traps OR disable device skill. The calculation is 10 + (Disable Device or Set Traps / 2) and there is a cap of DC 35. Thus if you can get Set Traps or Disable Device to 50 or higher you will get the max DC. I found getting either to 50 so long as you put 33 skill points in to be very easy.

Bombs are a fantastic and under used mechanic in game. I think part of the reason is the 1 minute cooldown which was introduced because people were spamming them / selling them on AH or back to vendors (which was also fixed by making vendors pay almost nothing for them).

In any case, yeah...bombs are cool.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

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Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Fri Jul 19, 2019 12:02 pm

Great, thanks for the info...

All these options, it’s really making it hard to figure out what I want to play.

Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:16 pm

Another question. How viable is blinding strike? Better or worse than feint? Any reason to have one over the other? Any reason to have both?

chad878262
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:47 pm

blinding strike is pretty much a no brainer to take on any high sneak dice rogue build...

Let's assume you have one of the 'weaker' rogue builds that only does 12d6 sneak dice and you have 16 Rogue levels... DC would be 10 + 12 (sneak dice) + 5 (level 30) + 2 (Rogue levels) = 29 and you can use it once every 45 seconds. It applies to your weapon so you can use it far in advance too.

Now, if you have R21/A9 (for example) that DC will be 34 making it an even stronger pick... The strongest DC at Rogue 30 would be 10 + 15 (sneak dice) + 5 (Character level/6) + 5 (Rogue level/6) = 35. It is an amazing feat, but just remember you can't rely on it for more than what amounts to one or two kills per encounter so it can't be your primary method of delivering sneak dice.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

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Tanlaus
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Tanlaus » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:59 pm

Thanks. Thinking of dipping a few fighter levels for the feats and survivability. Would only lose I sneak attack dice and I could always make that up in epic levels.

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Theodore01
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by Theodore01 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:03 pm

Thief Acrobat is a nice class to dip

chad878262
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Re: Rogue Questions

Unread post by chad878262 » Fri Jul 19, 2019 4:28 pm

that's fine if you need the feats for a specific purpose, but in general while rogue builds can be a bit 'feat starved' they also don't have that many feats they need. In general Bodyguard is almost a no-brainer 3 level dip as it generally ends up being +1 BAB, +10% movement speed without costing you any sneak dice. Thief Acrobat is also a very good dip as Theodore mentions (although to be fair it's far better for non-rogue's, they do still have some interesting rogue synergy such as Springboard (another way to proc sneak attacks!) and Kip up (knockdown immunity!)

As to feats, assuming a PTWF rogue pre-epic you'd need Weapon finesse, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Blinding Strike which leaves you with two free (I like to have SF: Hide and SF: Move Silently personally). Thief Acrobat requires Dash and SF: (either tumble or escape artist) which makes Whirling Dervish an excellent option since you get Dash at 1 and SF x 3 at level 3. So if you are interested in a Rogue/Thief Acrobat you might consider R19/TA5/SD3/WD3 as an option to have 11d6 sneak dice with 3 options to proc sneak attack (HiPS, Blinding Strike and Springboard. Personally I want way more damage on my sneak attack based builds, but too each their own. If interested, for this build you need Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Finesse, TWF/ITWF/GTWF, Blinding Strike which is your 7 feats pre-epic. Take Dodge at 1, Weapon Finesse at 3, Mobility at 6 which will allow SD1 at level 8, then take your 3 levels of WD to qualify for TA. Pretty simple.

Whatever you decide, don't forget for your build you have some basically MUST haves in epics. For this reason you need to ensure that you take Crippling Strike (Rogue 10 feat), Defensive Roll (in our example that would be R13 feat) and Improved Evasion (in the example you get it free at TA5). So in this case you would have bonus feats at Rogue 16 and 19 that could both be epic feats (2x Improved Sneak Attack for example) or non-epic feats if you wanted something else. Since you have WD you could go SF: Hide, SF: Move Silently and SF: Tumble (or Escape Artist).

Epic Precision (requires that you have Crippling Strike)
Epic Prowess
Expose Weakness
Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
Epic Dodge (requires that you have Defensive Roll and Improved Evasion)

As you can see not a lot of room in your epic feats. Even if you have those two extra rogue feats you may need Great DEX depending on race/stat distribution since PTWF and Epic Dodge require 25 DEX which means you need 25 DEX no later than level 27.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands

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