Rage and combat expertise

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Bobthehero
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Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by Bobthehero »

With all the changes to Barbarian, I feel it's way too powerful compared to most other martial classes. So I propose a bit of a kick in the face for the class, in the form of making its rage closer to PnP (which as far as I know, is a good basis to ask for class changes here?), particularly, this line.
While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats.
Especially the highlighted line
Aurelien Amon: Human fighter, member of the Whitewood Vanguard, Hoarite

Lotrik: Not a wise Genasi, probably stronger than you tho, a master of longswords. Fully retired

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MadSeer
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by MadSeer »

I'm not disagreeing with the changes, as a long time Barbarian player there's a lot of things I wish were different (I absolutely despised Whirlwind Frenzy when it was first added to the different servers, or restriction to Weapon Master/FB instead of making Frenzied Berserker -require- Barbarian levels as it should, or just fixing Frenzied Berserker as a whole to not be garbage), but does it really outclass other martial classes?

I'm genuinely asking, my melee builds often revolve around Barbarians and I don't know much about the other classes, I just thought a lot of dominating melee builds didn't touch the Barbarian class because it requires significant level investment to get the really good stuff.

Edit: I'd be in favor of scrapping CE during Rage, but as a fan of PrCs like Runescarred Berserker or Rage Mage, being able to cast spells, metamagic or use scrolls allow to "cheat" those PrCs.
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Zkenic
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by Zkenic »

20Barbarian/10Anointed Knight-Warrior of Darkness is a common powerbuild. To be honest though Im not well versed in barbarian builds, I just know you can get really good DR, regen on top of your DR and high HP, over-the-top HP, and close to equal AB to fighters. Evasion from barbarian nets you expose weakness. +10str/con from epic rage means you only need a +2con/str item (like ring of might) to have capped stats. High con + AK/WoD and Steadfast makes your fort/will super high. They just kind of get everything you could ever want.

Barbarians are lame though because they can run out of rages. If I wanted to have the ability to run out of abilities, I'd play a wizard (and I do!). I hate having limited resources as a warrior.
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Bobthehero
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by Bobthehero »

I'd have to redo the calcuations for AC on a top tier Barb, but it can out AB, and probably equalize a MaA/Blackguard(or pally) EDM damage, all the while benefiting from incredible saves, and more HP. Not sure how favorably it compares to a Dwarven Defender powerbuild, but I think a Barbarian build won against such a build in the latest martial tournament.

Regarding your edit, I'd be perfectly fine with PrC's allowing one to bypass some basic restrictions, seems entirely the point of said PrC's.

Edit regarding Zkenic post: I think Barb 20/AK or WoD 5/Divine Champ 5 is the prefered powerbuild, but I am not sure.
Aurelien Amon: Human fighter, member of the Whitewood Vanguard, Hoarite

Lotrik: Not a wise Genasi, probably stronger than you tho, a master of longswords. Fully retired

Bob Thairo: Dreadknight of Bane, Back on the Coast, tyranning away with his wife
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izzul
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by izzul »

while casters, EDM , and powerful spells making the top tier , why are we making the basic melee non caster weaker?

at least give them Barbarian to shine since they rarely go EDM route. Melee have had it worse for many years before.
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c2k
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by c2k »

I think barbarians are fine where they are.

I also personally believe FB should require the Barbarian feats it requires in PnP, but its probably not worth changing at this time as it would just invalidate a lot of characters.(basically a small vault wipe )
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by JIŘÍ »

To rage and have at the same time CE makes no sense.

First, the downside of rage is penalty to AC (removed by later features). you get big boon to dmg, hps and alike, so why should it mantain CE at the same time.

Second, rage represents careless furious attack, so how can you mantain focused defense and at same time, go wild.
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c2k
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by c2k »

JIŘÍ wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:48 am To rage and have at the same time CE makes no sense.

First, the downside of rage is penalty to AC (removed by later features). you get big boon to dmg, hps and alike, so why should it mantain CE at the same time.

Second, rage represents careless furious attack, so how can you mantain focused defense and at same time, go wild.
Sure, I agree its awkward, but its not exactiy making Barbarian OP. Its not really worth diving into the code to change. If you could be in PA and CE at the same time, then I would agree it needs to be changed. But in many cases, going into CE/ICE is negating your AB gained by raging.
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Bobthehero
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by Bobthehero »

Which you then regain via EW
Aurelien Amon: Human fighter, member of the Whitewood Vanguard, Hoarite

Lotrik: Not a wise Genasi, probably stronger than you tho, a master of longswords. Fully retired

Bob Thairo: Dreadknight of Bane, Back on the Coast, tyranning away with his wife
c2k
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by c2k »

Bobthehero wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:39 am Which you then regain via EW
'
EW as in Expose Weakness??
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Bobthehero
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by Bobthehero »

Yes
Aurelien Amon: Human fighter, member of the Whitewood Vanguard, Hoarite

Lotrik: Not a wise Genasi, probably stronger than you tho, a master of longswords. Fully retired

Bob Thairo: Dreadknight of Bane, Back on the Coast, tyranning away with his wife
JIŘÍ
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by JIŘÍ »

c2k wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:28 am
JIŘÍ wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:48 am To rage and have at the same time CE makes no sense.

First, the downside of rage is penalty to AC (removed by later features). you get big boon to dmg, hps and alike, so why should it mantain CE at the same time.

Second, rage represents careless furious attack, so how can you mantain focused defense and at same time, go wild.
Sure, I agree its awkward, but its not exactiy making Barbarian OP. Its not really worth diving into the code to change. If you could be in PA and CE at the same time, then I would agree it needs to be changed. But in many cases, going into CE/ICE is negating your AB gained by raging.
I see no reason why barbarian should GAIN all boons and benefits and no downsides in a rage.
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Zkenic
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by Zkenic »

Barbarians got overtuned whenever it got its buff. Vanilla rage is super strong with all benefits and no AC loss, barbarians get evasion, bonus feats, only need 21str/con so you can get epic rage and epic dr without any issue, +2AC.

Though at this point its hard to take away what has been given.
Khali - "Magic is supreme, in both its wonder and its terror. Cower before your superiors, or suffer."

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c2k
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by c2k »

That seems like a poor use for EW. I mean, if I have EW active, I would rather be in PA/IPA anyway with my rage bonus. :lol:
c2k
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Re: Rage and combat expertise

Unread post by c2k »

Zkenic wrote: Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:59 am Barbarians got overtuned whenever it got its buff. Vanilla rage is super strong with all benefits and no AC loss, barbarians get evasion, bonus feats, only need 21str/con so you can get epic rage and epic dr without any issue, +2AC.

Though at this point its hard to take away what has been given.
The over-tuning was giving them Evasion. Barbarians have no business having evasion.
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