Archmage Suggestion

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cosmic ray
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Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by cosmic ray »

I don't play an archmage and I have no plans to play one, not that there would be anything wrong with that. With that out of the way, I bring a suggestion:

Remove the archmage penalty of losing spell slots per each high arcana taken (easy and quick to do) OR keep that penalty, but make the class have only five levels with one high arcana per level, as per dnd rules (not so easy and quick, I should think, but what do I know).

The reasoning is that this nerf is just a double penalty. Losing spell slots at such good levels already is a bit of a hard blow, but having to take two levels for the same benefits that a single level should bring is even more of a blow. The class already has hefty requirements anyway, so does it really need so many penalties? It's a nice class, but I don't think it really deserves the extra nerf for +1 DC, elemental mastery (which requires 8 levels yikes!) etc.
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by Dolorof »

This please!

The spell focus is also a huge nerf, It requires 2 different schools which as far as i know is a server nerf. Its such a great prc imo since it does not have a huge RP background to it, like most other mage prcs. (Shadow adept, RW and BM to some extended all have a big RP background)
Not to mention the other AM feats that are disabled on the server.
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by YYA »

The Arch Mage PRC was introduced in the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Manual, page 178.

It requires two spell focus feats, and the High Arcana abilities do cost a spell slot.

As for lore the burdens of Archmages, well, an Arch Mage in the Forgotten Realms is usually a somebody of gerat local importance -- and it showed up as one of the reasons not to add the PRC in the first place.

As for other Arch Mage feats: The source material lists: Spell-Like abilities, Mastery of Shapeing, Master of Elements, Mastery of Counter Spelling (Some spells are redirected back at their original casters), Arcane Reach (Touch attack spells become ranged touch attack spells), and Arcane Fire (Which in source material deals 1d6 damage, while on the server it deals 1d8).

The High Arcana Spell Power feats that exist on this server are server specific additions.
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

Hm. Are you sure you lose spellslots? Archmage does actually have more spellslots that regular wizard, not less, because she can get some of the most useful spells as spell-like abilities.

You lose 3 spellslots with Spellpower, then you grab two SLA's each giving you at least 2 uses of the selected spell (and lower levels give 3 to 4 charges depending on spell level). So, even if you choose two lvl 9 spells as SLAs, you still are 1 spellslot ahead in terms of using your magic compared to regular wizard.
Grabbing IGMS as your SLA gives you 3 uses of it and it can be reignited further. Grab bigby + IGMS and you basically can win a PvP without using a single spellslot of your own, not mentioning that for 3 spellslots you get +3 CL, 3 IGMS and 2 Bigbies. Where do you see having less slots than regular wizards? :)
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by DaloLorn »

EasternCheesE wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:08 am Hm. Are you sure you lose spellslots? Archmage does actually have more spellslots that regular wizard, not less, because she can get some of the most useful spells as spell-like abilities.

You lose 3 spellslots with Spellpower, then you grab two SLA's each giving you at least 2 uses of the selected spell (and lower levels give 3 to 4 charges depending on spell level). So, even if you choose two lvl 9 spells as SLAs, you still are 1 spellslot ahead in terms of using your magic compared to regular wizard.
Grabbing IGMS as your SLA gives you 3 uses of it and it can be reignited further. Grab bigby + IGMS and you basically can win a PvP without using a single spellslot of your own, not mentioning that for 3 spellslots you get +3 CL, 3 IGMS and 2 Bigbies. Where do you see having less slots than regular wizards? :)
And if, instead of Spellpower+SLAs, you choose some of the actually interesting High Arcana feats, you will experience a measurable reduction in spellcasting capacity. Add to this the fact that many spells don't have High Arcana SLAs, and this thread becomes much more understandable.
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

Let's see.
Spellpower 1-2-3 takes spellslot of 5-7-9 respectively.
Mastery of shaping takes lvl 5 spellslot.
Mastery of elements takes lvl 8 spellslot.
Arcane fire takes lvl 9 spellslot.

So, if you take the harderst hit by going spellpower 3, then mastery of elements and arcane fire, you lost: 1 lvl 5 slot, 1 lvl 7 slot, 1 lvl 8 slot, 2 lvl 9 slots in exchange for:
1) +1 DC, +3 CL for SR penetration calculations (both outcoming and incoming, which means you can dispel/shoot things easier while you are harder to dispel).
2) Ability to use any elemental spell giving it the element you wish.
3) Ability to turn any of your spells into an RTA with extra 10d6 dmg. Thus, lvl 1 spell converted into arcane fire will deal 11d8 dmg, 49,5 average dmg with a level one spell. 19d8 dmg for lvl 8 spell. So, this ability is really good when using lowlevel spells as it doesn't scale that well compared higher level spells themself (polar ray deals 30d6 on it's own as CL 30 caster). Ah, totally useless for AT since arcane fire doesn't trigger RTA sneak attack.

To me, this looks like viable boons that also alter game significally for blaster mage as they don't need to prepare various spells for different enemy immunities as well as they are 15% harder to dispel and have 15% more chance to penetrate SR, 1 more DC on all DC spells. I'd myself pick SLA instead of arcane fire, so i'd have access to, say, 3 IGMS. The overall balance would've be: losing one of each lvl 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 spells, getting equivalent for 3 lvl 6 spellslots with IGMS (which every blaster will end up using anyway). Making archmage a 5 level only will allow to fit in blood mage and other CL increasing PrCs easier for more powerful results.

While understanding why having 5 levels that give nothing is perceived as a waste, i feel that balance on it's own is important because making it 5 level deep will allow for mixing in more classes that add CL and so on.
We also have eldritch knight PrC which gives nothing except two semi-useless feats, high BAB and 9/10 spell progression, which is way less than archmage PrC offers.
Image
I used items with negative slots to represent archmage slot sacrifices (too lazy to add a section for it). 3 spellslots of lvl 6 are for 3x IGMS i'd pick.
So a PC with spellpower 3, mastery of elements and IGMS SLA witll have this.
While such a loss is ouchy, it's not something a CL 30 wizard with 30 int can't afford for the boons it gives.
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by Steve »

Does it work out the same with Sorcerer?

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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by Aspect of Sorrow »

EasternCheesE wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:20 am Making archmage a 5 level only will allow to fit in blood mage and other CL increasing PrCs easier for more powerful results.
In summary.
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by DaloLorn »

I mean, of the options the OP presented, I would by far prefer keeping my spell slots over compacting Archmage back into a 5-level PRC. But with the exception of the SLAs, I disagree with the assertion that the High Arcana effects are more powerful than the lost spell slots, and I certainly disagree with the notion that they are superior to +5 BAB and rounding out your saves with a high-Fortitude class.
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

Steve wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:54 am Does it work out the same with Sorcerer?
Image

I'd say the result is somewhat close to it. 9 more spells of different levels accessible with the same class spread. I didn't check it precisely about picking classes, but raw calcilating lvl 30 sorc with 30 cha gives this result for same picking spellpower, mastery of elements and IGMS SLA.
This may work even better for Sorc since they don't need to decide what they want to put into their memory, thus they are very flexible. And the fact they can change the element, means they don't need to have several various element spells to handle different enemies, they can just turn polar ray into fire damage and roll it.
Last edited by EasternCheesE on Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

DaloLorn wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:06 am I mean, of the options the OP presented, I would by far prefer keeping my spell slots over compacting Archmage back into a 5-level PRC. But with the exception of the SLAs, I disagree with the assertion that the High Arcana effects are more powerful than the lost spell slots, and I certainly disagree with the notion that they are superior to +5 BAB and rounding out your saves with a high-Fortitude class.
Oh, i didn't say they are superior to +5 BAB, but why do you need BAB if you don't go gish/transmuter way?
As of spellslots, it really depends on our perspective, no good answer here. To me, losing 5 total spellslots is not a big problem (since i play 22 int CL 16+4 gish thus i have total of 3 lvl 8 spellslots in general, and i'm just used to it). So, to me, giving up 1 spellslot of lvl 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 while gaining 3 IGMS SLA uses together with ability to change my spell element on will and extra DC/CL sounds quite okay. Wizard-based archmage with 30 int does have 30 lvl 5-9 spellslots, so giving up 5 and getting 3 doesn't sound bad to me.
This part is mostly about perspective and our opinions.
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by DaloLorn »

EasternCheesE wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:15 am
DaloLorn wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:06 am I mean, of the options the OP presented, I would by far prefer keeping my spell slots over compacting Archmage back into a 5-level PRC. But with the exception of the SLAs, I disagree with the assertion that the High Arcana effects are more powerful than the lost spell slots, and I certainly disagree with the notion that they are superior to +5 BAB and rounding out your saves with a high-Fortitude class.
Oh, i didn't say they are superior to +5 BAB, but why do you need BAB if you don't go gish/transmuter way?
As of spellslots, it really depends on our perspective, no good answer here. To me, losing 5 total spellslots is not a big problem (since i play 22 int CL 16+4 gish thus i have total of 3 lvl 8 spellslots in general, and i'm just used to it). So, to me, giving up 1 spellslot of lvl 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 while gaining 3 IGMS SLA uses together with ability to change my spell element on will and extra DC/CL sounds quite okay. Wizard-based archmage with 30 int does have 30 lvl 5-9 spellslots, so giving up 5 and getting 3 doesn't sound bad to me.
This part is mostly about perspective and our opinions.
Even if you max INT, you don't get 30 INT unless you get a +4 item on a race with +2 racial INT, or spend between 2 and 6 epic feats on Great INT. I'm not even sacrificing level 9 slots yet, and I feel that I have fewer slots than I'd like to have. I play my archmage as a full DC caster/blaster, and I feel the cost of each of my High Arcana feats a lot more than I feel the benefits of Mastery of Shaping (which doesn't even work as advertised half of the time!) or Spellpower 3. (In fact, I'm most likely not even taking Spellpower 3. If I'm burning a level 9 slot, it's going to be for Arcane Fire, not a paltry +5% to dispel/SR checks.)
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

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DaloLorn wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:27 am
EasternCheesE wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:15 am
DaloLorn wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 8:06 am I mean, of the options the OP presented, I would by far prefer keeping my spell slots over compacting Archmage back into a 5-level PRC. But with the exception of the SLAs, I disagree with the assertion that the High Arcana effects are more powerful than the lost spell slots, and I certainly disagree with the notion that they are superior to +5 BAB and rounding out your saves with a high-Fortitude class.
Oh, i didn't say they are superior to +5 BAB, but why do you need BAB if you don't go gish/transmuter way?
As of spellslots, it really depends on our perspective, no good answer here. To me, losing 5 total spellslots is not a big problem (since i play 22 int CL 16+4 gish thus i have total of 3 lvl 8 spellslots in general, and i'm just used to it). So, to me, giving up 1 spellslot of lvl 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 while gaining 3 IGMS SLA uses together with ability to change my spell element on will and extra DC/CL sounds quite okay. Wizard-based archmage with 30 int does have 30 lvl 5-9 spellslots, so giving up 5 and getting 3 doesn't sound bad to me.
This part is mostly about perspective and our opinions.
Even if you max INT, you don't get 30 INT unless you get a +4 item on a race with +2 racial INT, or spend between 2 and 6 epic feats on Great INT. I'm not even sacrificing level 9 slots yet, and I feel that I have fewer slots than I'd like to have. I play my archmage as a full DC caster/blaster, and I feel the cost of each of my High Arcana feats a lot more than I feel the benefits of Mastery of Shaping (which doesn't even work as advertised half of the time!) or Spellpower 3. (In fact, I'm most likely not even taking Spellpower 3. If I'm burning a level 9 slot, it's going to be for Arcane Fire, not a paltry +5% to dispel/SR checks.)
If you play a blaster, losing 1 lvl 6 slot to get IGMS SLA is way more profitable than getting arcane fire as it scales horrible with spell level.
Arcane fire will deal 10d8 + spell level d8 damage while taking your lvl 9 slot AND using the spellslot you sacrifice with conversion. So the max dmg you can achieve with arcane fire is 10d8 + 9d8 at the cost of lvl 9 spell, while meteor swarm can deal 24d6 fire and 8d6 bludgeoning damage. Thus, arcane fire is only useful to use your lowlevel slots, but even then damage would be mediocre at best. A fireball does already scale to 15d6 dmg (52,5 avg dmg) while arcane fire with it will do 13d8 dmg (58,5 avg dmg).
IGMS on the other hand can deal 24d6 dmg to primary target and 20d6 to secondary target, which means you deal 84 + 74 = 158 dmg/round. And then you reignite it. Arcane fire can be a cool RP feature, but it's not very good mechanically.
And, if we talk optimizing things, spellpower 3 is not really needed since you get +1 DC on CL 32. So, in general, you lose lvl 5, 6, 7, 8 spellslots (and one more spellslot for spell level you decide if you take another spell SLA). Say, getting polar ray. Then, you lose lvl 5,6,7 and 8x2, but you get 3 IGMS and 2 polar rays which can be reignited.

I believe i gave enough argumets for my position to be clear (it does't mean me not agreeing with this proposal changes anything in Dev decision making process since QC hold advisory position only).
If you want to discuss ideas about archmage, i'm always ready to do so in discord, Dalo, so we don't possibly derail the topic :)
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by yyj »

The class isn't nerfed that's how it's supposed to work. I don't want the class to deviate too much from PnP and it appears to me it's fine the way it is.
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Re: Archmage Suggestion

Unread post by DaloLorn »

If you play a blaster, losing 1 lvl 6 slot to get IGMS SLA is way more profitable than getting arcane fire as it scales horrible with spell level.
Arcane fire will deal 10d8 + spell level d8 damage while taking your lvl 9 slot AND using the spellslot you sacrifice with conversion. So the max dmg you can achieve with arcane fire is 10d8 + 9d8 at the cost of lvl 9 spell, while meteor swarm can deal 24d6 fire and 8d6 bludgeoning damage. Thus, arcane fire is only useful to use your lowlevel slots, but even then damage would be mediocre at best. A fireball does already scale to 15d6 dmg (52,5 avg dmg) while arcane fire with it will do 13d8 dmg (58,5 avg dmg).
IGMS on the other hand can deal 24d6 dmg to primary target and 20d6 to secondary target, which means you deal 84 + 74 = 158 dmg/round. And then you reignite it. Arcane fire can be a cool RP feature, but it's not very good mechanically.
Oh, I absolutely agree that Arcane Fire is mostly an RP thing (though it does have the secondary benefit of allowing you to recycle spare wards or any spells that your current enemy is immune to). But the point is, I could probably be a more effective spellcaster by taking another 10 levels of Wizard (for two free feats, plus whatever Archmage prerequisites I'm allowed to get rid of), or taking literally any other arcane PRC. I would gain plenty of things, at relatively little cost because I'm already a full-CL build. Heck, even taking Archmage and picking 5 SLA feats would probably be a better deal most of the time (... especially with reignition... :think:) than the other High Arcana feats.

Probably the only other time it's worth the cost is if you're trying to use Spellpower to boost your CL up to 30 for dispel immunity.
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