Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

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Tanlaus
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Tanlaus »

Steve wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:11 pm If “public” Discord channels are made in order to facilitate RP on BGTSCC, but no mention is made on the Forum, that is bad practice and creates an “only this in the know...” or clique-like group situation.

Not saying it was intentional, but can absolutely be the effect.
You’re right about this.

Though when I say Bregan public I mean we have guild only channels on our discord for guild only matters- which is pretty quiet to be honest- and a public channel which is for anyone we RP with outside the guild.

It’s public in the sense that we will invite pretty much anyone but it’s self selecting in the sense that you gotta show up and RP with us to even know about it...

Until now! (Cue dramatic music)

It’s super easy to get involved in UD RP. Two simple rules 1) show up when someone is around 2) don’t run away when we try to talk to you.

You’d be astonished how many times rule number 2 is broken.
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Tekill
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Tekill »

athornforyourheart wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:38 pm
So yes, I agree. It all stems from trust and getting along more on the ooc note to make things better both mechanically and role play wise.
No I disagree. More trust and good faith ooc would be nice but its not the reason why mechanically the UD is hurting.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by JustAnotherGuy »

Since this has evolved a slight bit to be speaking of conflict RP in general, as well as the UD, I will say that in the past the server has not responded well to conflict RP, which is unfortunate.

Back in late 2017 or so, I was on a toon who ended up becoming the target of one of the then current "villains" of the server. I lost to him in PvP several times. The experience was amazing. My character's story arc evolved so well due to the villain.

The point though, is that this person was very cordial OOCly. Even so much as to ask me beforehand if he were interrupting any RP and such before he engaged with my toon. Once my toon was defeated in PvP, he then made sure I had time for followup. He took my toon hostage. And then told me, "x is a cruel person. If any of this crosses a line for you, let me know, and I'll stop it immediately". There was some very light (and not overly descriptive) torture in order to get information from my toon. All in all, the person was OOCly very polite, and understanding.

However. There was a forum blowup about this person. People posting nasty things, calling him out and saying horrible things about him.

Going back to the UD, the UD is a grim place. Every day is conflict. Every day is a scrap for survival. But going off of my past experiences with how people look at conflict here, I can't help but think that this attitude plays into the reason the UD isn't thriving. The population as whole shies away from conflict RP, even going so far as to decry it. So they don't want a thriving UD, where conflict is the norm and could spill over into their RP.
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athornforyourheart
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by athornforyourheart »

Tekill wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 3:04 pm
athornforyourheart wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:38 pm
So yes, I agree. It all stems from trust and getting along more on the ooc note to make things better both mechanically and role play wise.
No I disagree. More trust and good faith ooc would be nice but its not the reason why mechanically the UD is hurting.

I respect that. I suppose my theory is supportive to shadowspinners if I in fact analyzed it correctly. But overall that the current rules and restrictions were not made because staff wants to purposely cage one world from the other, but simply because at some or point the rule was made or placed because “something went wrong”. Usually this happens , in the case of “surface/under dark issue’s” when there is either a breach of current rules or misunderstanding for lack of communication (likely between two parties.) Then that becomes an argument and DMs are forced to make new redirections.

But I understand that this conversation is not entirely based on just this one thing. I’m just giving my opinion of what I feel a core factor is to the problems that current limit the UD. It’s not a judgement on under dark player nor surface but the server in whole.


If the issue is based on just getting more UD presence then perhaps I’ve mistaken the current topic of the thread and I apologize.


///edited to fix iPhone auto type typos
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by c2k »

I will second conflict RP doesn't really end well here, it becomes an OOC mess. Only a few people here can withstand the hurt of getting beat in a player interaction.

The problem with the Underdark is it just exists on this server. What I mean by that is meta-campaigns, long story arcs, any thing that will significantly change the server does not happen in the UD. That happens on the Surface. The UD is just to keep those UD races from running around in cities on the surface.

And its not to say good RPers have never been around in the UD, because over the years there has been good RP down there(despite how unique the culture of Sshamath is to the rest of drow society). However, it does seem when RP does start up down there, its a group move rather than an individual starting out on their own.

And the issue with Surface/UD is it always devolves into a mess instigated by both sides. You say there should be underdark spies on the surface, but what exactly are they spying on? Sshamath isn't a city that takes military action against the surface, its a trade hub. In the past, aside from a few players, the UD would just go up to the surface to farm to "raid", which means they wanted to PvP. And thats why you have a lot of these restrictions in place, because of the OOC messes these situations caused.

Personally, I am a believer that if there is potentially good RP to be had, it doesn't matter which side of the world you are on, it should happen. If a human should get involved in Sshamath politics in some manner, they must have paid a lot of money, but it can be believable to an extent. Same thing with a drow organization pulling trade in the streets of Baldur's Gate under guise. It sure is possible in theory. But its really hard to pull this off in this game unfortunately because of the drama that follows, even if people find out OOCly.
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Blackman D
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Blackman D »

Shadowspinner70 wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:55 pm There is very little trust between players across the board. Sometimes trust can be rebuilt and sometimes it can't be. Evil and good, surface and underdark, and even within those groups.

Intrigue RP and conflict RP, to go well, means we have to have some sort of trust in each other as parties involved. Rules were set because the bar had to be pushed back, or staff felt that the bar had to be pushed back and some trust was lost.
you are not wrong, i dont think ive ever seen any bit of conflict rp, even if it started out really good, end well - it always devolved into either ic or occ drama because people are sore losers

and to be clear, i was not even in the UD actively back in the day, i was on the surface when all those things were going on and switched sides to the UD more or less to help support UD rp, but by this time the surface/UD civil war if you will was already pretty bloody with people starting to leave

but the other major issue that was brought up is the UD, while it has always had good rpers, has never had prolonged DM support to help drive things - not saying there are never been DM support, there have been some DM driven plots and events but as soon as it ends there has always been a drought between the next one

most UD players have no issues rping between themselves but if the intent is to attract more people then a lot of people are really only attracted where the attention is

there was even one period of time that a few of the surfacer elves rolled UD toons and brought that silly surface rp down to the UD but they also brought the DM that always followed them and it did generate a bit more activity... that led to my assassin killing most all of them but still... maecius got away :cry:

things in terms of DM attention were easier back in the day because DMs were dedicated to areas, so if your faction had a DM you pretty much didnt have to worry about events as much, but of course people cried favoritism and such when the design was intended for people to join factions that had DM support instead of wanting to be snowflakes and make their own all the time and get mad they dont have a DM

so dedicated DMs went away and then it was just a free for all as to who was able to get any attention, then the idea of mega plots came and that helped but mega plots are a bit weird if we are being honest, you can help but how much your help matters is a different story, which is not necessarily bad or anything like that

but anyway, the UD has always had a few die hard players and your seasonal visitors here and there
but through all of these shifts of DM focus, the UD is usually left out or underhanded
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by c2k »

Blackman D wrote: Thu Jun 03, 2021 5:12 pm that led to my assassin killing most all of them but still... maecius got away :cry:
Don't feel bad... he always gets away. :violence-axechase:
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KOPOJIbPAKOB
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by KOPOJIbPAKOB »

It's really nice to see such a discussion going on in a civil, honest way, back in the day there would be too many "but ur playin a monster race!" shouts in such thread. Thankfully the culture changed and so I think it could be a good time for ruling changes too to represent it.

The UD always had unstable population, jumping from full stagnation to high levels of activity in months. Making it active is totally possible, but it takes at least 2 really dedicated UD players who generate RP wherever they walk (like it always was). Cross-realms restrictions are clearly a huge reason why. Formally these restrictions penalize both realms equally, in reality they always punish the UD in the first place. You can't properly immerse with the dangers of the UD because you, as a player, feel that the UD is a way safer space than the surface. Liberal Sshamath against xenophobic authoritarian BG, wildwest surface North vs quiet road to Sshamath without a single KoS zone on its way, the real server experience doesn't fit the narrative we're supposed to believe.

I do have a set of things that would help with the situation. They're not new, I voiced them many times in similar threads in the past, here they are:

1) KoS. It's a topic of its own to explain why this mechanic is obsolette and brings nothing to RP environment. Instead of completely deleting it, it's fine to rewrite it to something like normal PvP rules, but more harsh. A great (and recent) example of this is the new PvP ruling by the DM team, regarding shapechange:
- While polymorphed into a form that is not your own, you are perceived as being what you have become.
If your PC has taken the form of a Race/Monster, they are considered to be a creature of that form, in-character. While you remain in this form, it means that you accept that your PC may be set to hostile by the other players who see you, and that you agree to any hostilie Role-played towards you, or even being attacked, for as long as you remain in that form. Remaining in monstrous forms after being shown in-character hostility and being set to hostile, is considered consent to actual PvP attack. Changing into a non-threatening form, or returning to your natural form again, removes this consent.
This ruling has spirit of KoS, yet it's pro-RP and is respectful to both parties of the conflict. Its implementation went well, so I think it would be great to extend a similar ruling to the UD / Surface CvC interactions.

2) Loot restrictions. The same as with KoS, rather than completely lifting them, I suggest expanding the neutral zone from the Upperdark to the surface North, including areas such as Forest of Wyrms, Highmoor, Boareskyr Bridge, Fort Prominence, Thundar's Ride, Troll Claws, Winding Water and some others. In these areas, penitentiary rulings don't work and UD'ers can freely loot. This suggestion will give a lot of air to the UD community, and asking "what is the RP reason drow loot on the surface?" shouldn't even be a question, because the answer is the same as what the surface adventurers are doing in the deep dangerous caves. They're adventuring.

3) Crossrealm squatting. Underdark characters who wish to squat on the surface, to live on the surfacers, shouldn't be legally penalized for doing it, this activity should remain strictly within the RP field (unless there's some player conflicts caused by this RP that need DM intervention). The same, of course, goes for surfacers squatting in the UD, but I've noticed that the latter have way more freedom in doing so, up to limitless stay.

These three suggestions would greatly improve the server experience and make the UD character gameplay more enjoyable. As for making the UD more dangerous and less accessible, well, I agree the UD is way too softcore (even compared to the local surface), but you can't just make the playerbase believe it's super distant and dangerous while it takes 3 minutes of walk to get to Soubar from Sshamath. Add more high CR zones between the Titanfist and Ogre caves, this is probably the most sensible solution (Although it takes area builder time).

As for the fear of PvP mongering, aka a very mechanically skilled drow player playing solely for baiting surfacers into PvP, these situations are quite rare these days (and not because of the restrictions, but because of the current server culture). If they arise, deal with them individually, I'm not the first to say that there's 0 reason to punish the whole community due to 1 bad apple.

Lastly, my suggestions are not a panacea for all possible UD-related issues, and some of them are so fundamental that it's impossible to resolve (such as the depressive cave atmosphere of the UD setting), yet these are the steps to the right direction. In the end, there's no actual realms, we're playing on the same server and it's time to acknowledge it.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Trinket »

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:39 am KOPOJIbPAKOB's post
Some really great solutions/suggestions here. There was a past initiative (admittedly, I've heard only through OOC discussion) that was about ensuring that drow-blooded characters weren't allowed in the cities, and I think inviting more interaction by expanding the space where the drow and half-drow can ICly play could create more dynamic RP between the factions. Especially done in some of the ways suggested here. I never want a person to feel excluded because they play drow, or half-drow, in our community.


Really enjoyed reading through the posts in this discussion. :)
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Steve
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Steve »

"The drow are purely malign by temperament, as hateful as wolverines, as opportunistic as hyenas."
— Gary Gygax, 2005
Drow should be let to be Drow, on BGTSCC, surface or UD.

The issue stands of how to be supportive of that, from the Admins down to the newbs, and back up.

Somehow, more gains or rewards need to be available to players than the ones of what is gained OOC when a player can “win” over another player.

I like to think of it as a cards table. We players should sit as individuals or teams at the table together, playing against the House (both the 2e Forgotten Realms setting AND the BGTSCC Server and its Rules, which we should be able to ask to change at times). The DM is the dealer, who we only ask for fair deals when we ask for cards to update our hands. We are all trying to come up with the better hand in the end, but we must ALWAYS remember there is no game without the other players with us at the table.

If either a player or a DM comes to the table with an idea to cheat, or unfairly deal cards, then the good sportsmanship construct fails.

Just ask your selves: are we all leaving an open chair at the table for whomever wished to join?

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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by V'rass »

Having now played on a server where the UD is not only 500 times bigger but 500 times more active and populated with both players and dm's i really feel sorry for the state of the UD here knowing what it (could) be if there were only enough people who actually wanted to make it happen and spent enough time to do so, and also had the time and resources to manage it. Removing some of the issues mentioned in this thread would absolutely make a big difference.
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Re: Encourage cooperation/spying between UD and surface

Unread post by Pajutek »

V'rass wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:18 pm Having now played on a server where the UD is not only 500 times bigger but 500 times more active and populated with both players and dm's i really feel sorry for the state of the UD here knowing what it (could) be if there were only enough people who actually wanted to make it happen and spent enough time to do so, and also had the time and resources to manage it. Removing some of the issues mentioned in this thread would absolutely make a big difference.
I agree that UD could be a great place for rp on this server, it doesn't have to be 500 times bigger though.
It would be much better if what we have would be 500 times more fun and engaging. As a UD player myself and listening to my fellow UD players, there are some key points that could be changed. Note that it is mostly my own opinion and couple of people I talked with.
  • 1.Removal of mechanical rule walls, separating Surface from the Underdark: I belive we as community have grown to the point that the restrictions could be lessened a bit. How? I would leave that to those more experienced.
  • 2.Make Surface-UD road HARD: Right now everyone can cross it like its nothing, while this journey is supposed to be extremely hard. Make the road 30cr, give mobs there blindsight or true seeing and no-rest.Basically players should form organized groups in order to survive it.
  • 3.Make UD a dangerous place: Right now we have alot of empty spaces, relatively safe roads and outposts. One of the reasons I first joined underdark was to get that survival of the fittest feel. It should be hard but rewarding.
  • 4.Hiring or directing dedicated DMs for group and personal RP: I dont know if its true but I once heard, that DMs don't particularly like creating UD events due to lack of people or because they come and go. But people leave not because of the underdark environment or the harsh nature of IC rp, but because nobody pays them any attention. Compared to others I'm very likely a fresh player, yet I have seen many spontaneous events being organized on the surface while at the same time we UDers were left to our own devices.
This is but a couple of points I could think of right now, but seeing as popular this thread is becoming I belive others will give their own opinion on how this part of the server could get improved. Let's remember that conflict, harshness and losing is also part of RP. I don't think we should completely shut interaction between the two "factions" as sword coast and forgotten realms altogether aren't exactly the safest place to live in. :D
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