Is there any incentive for "dungeoneering" without a mechanical reward?

Suggestions for Improving Existing Area Maps or for Altering Area Maps to Reflect In-Game Plots

Moderators: Moderator, Quality Control, Developer, DM

User avatar
Grendunor
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:36 pm

Is there any incentive for "dungeoneering" without a mechanical reward?

Unread post by Grendunor »

It is largely assumed the point of adventuring is to acquire riches. There is no point to adventuring if there is no IC incentive, so any dungeon that lacks the gold/experience draw would need to provide an alternative IC reason for why the Player characters explore/delve.

See the 4th and 5th edtion assumption that the player character is out to save the world rather than better themselves
Oleander Stonehearth - Reluctant Hero
Layla Zaisis - The Lost Priestess
Ilinoril Spiritmoon - Emotional Support Elf
- And a cavalcade of retired characters

"EATSIES!!!" - The Troll-sage 2018
User avatar
gedweyignasia
Custom Content
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:27 pm
Location: EST/UTC-4
Contact:

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by gedweyignasia »

What I'm asking is what would make dungeons fun enough for players to invent their own RP reasons for venturing there, rather than depending on mechanical rewards? It sounds like combat is not an enjoyable part of adventuring.
User avatar
YourMoveHolyMan
Recognized Donor
Posts: 958
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:11 pm
Location: Alabama

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by YourMoveHolyMan »

If it provided some benefit for a faction I was taking part in? (Such as a faction point system which would arguably, 'better the world' and not the individual)

Puzzle dungeons are neat, but one offs. After I've done it once, I wouldn't see the need in repeating it over and over.
Michael Dunn

“There is more than one sort of prison, Captain," Chirrut said. "I sense that you carry yours wherever you go.”
Tanlaus
Quality Control
Posts: 1218
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:15 pm

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by Tanlaus »

gedweyignasia wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:41 am What I'm asking is what would make dungeons fun enough for players to invent their own RP reasons for venturing there, rather than depending on mechanical rewards? It sounds like combat is not an enjoyable part of adventuring.
I enjoy combat. And I know a few other players that do as well.

Personally I’d love to see a dungeon that provides some kind of challenge to a full epic group. Outside of a few bosses it’s pretty trivial to duo everything in the game and a full group makes it more like a walk in the park.

I feel like this is one of the biggest issues with our end game. While leveling you can find areas that are challenging to a group (and generally get the best xp there minus a few under tuned outliers). At 30 the challenge, particularly for a group, is mostly gone.

I would happily run a difficult area with no reward if there was a sense of accomplishment in completing it.

Even happier if there were loot though, not gonna lie 😀
User avatar
gedweyignasia
Custom Content
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:27 pm
Location: EST/UTC-4
Contact:

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by gedweyignasia »

YourMoveHolyMan wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:55 am If it provided some benefit for a faction I was taking part in?
Let me try that again. What kind of dungeon creates an experience which is its own reward?
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by Steve »

gedweyignasia wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 4:43 am Let me try that again. What kind of dungeon creates an experience which is its own reward?
The one where you and a few of your friends sit around and socialize while pretending to be these fantasy characters that have built a relationship over time from which to live experiences of adventure and progress, together, for a groups is safer and more powerful, than the individual, especially in a world filled with literal monsters and dark magic.

There is no point in creating a dungeon that does not come with a dungeon master, for epic level RP experiences. Players RPing in a lifeless world, or dungeon, or zone? Boring. Why would I dungeon if the same experience is gained around the campfire?

I don’t understand why you are putting so much effort in tying to rewrite the fundamentals of the D&D game format.

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
User avatar
gedweyignasia
Custom Content
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:27 pm
Location: EST/UTC-4
Contact:

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by gedweyignasia »

Steve wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:19 am I don’t understand why you are putting so much effort in tying to rewrite the fundamentals of the D&D game format.
It looks like our dungeons simply aren't fun, and I'm intent on fixing that. Adventuring might be your character's occupation, but it should feel like a game or an adventure, not work.
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by Steve »

gedweyignasia wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:50 am
Steve wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:19 am I don’t understand why you are putting so much effort in tying to rewrite the fundamentals of the D&D game format.
It looks like our dungeons simply aren't fun, and I'm intent on fixing that. Adventuring might be your character's occupation, but it should feel like a game or an adventure, not work.
It’s strange to me that you think BGTSCC dungeons aren’t fun. Is that because your data says players spend little time in them, compared to Wyvern killing?!?

That answer is obvious, and has no relation to fun/no fun.

In my own opinion, dungeons on BGTSCC are great fun. They however do not provide the same high level reward as open Areas/maps do, as in, XP gain reward.

I’d bet you money that before chests were limited to once-per-reset looting, when a Player had 3 chances per Reset, players spent MUCH MORE time in dungeons, because there rewards were greater.

This is why I ask you why you’re trying to rewrite the D&D game when it’s not in itself broken, nor is BGTSCC broken. If literally every responder in this thread says rewards are fun, but you Ged are saying “you should find fun without rewards,” don’t you see the inconsistency there?

If you want to make adventuring more fun, more like a game and less like work, then do the obvious: make rewards easier to get and more plentiful. And, the rewards that players want!!!! The Players!!

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
User avatar
Snarfy
Posts: 1403
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:14 pm

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by Snarfy »

YourMoveHolyMan wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:55 am Puzzle dungeons are neat, but one offs. After I've done it once, I wouldn't see the need in repeating it over and over.
Same. A puzzle dungeon with no look, xp, or monsters would get old after about two visits tops.
gedweyignasia wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:41 am What I'm asking is what would make dungeons fun enough for players to invent their own RP reasons for venturing there, rather than depending on mechanical rewards? It sounds like combat is not an enjoyable part of adventuring.
The main reason combat gets stale in dungeons isn't simply because combat is not enjoyable, it's because the expectation we have of the monsters(in the dungeons) is to never surprise us. We OOC'ly know what to expect every time we enter a dungeon, we know where the bosses are, what abilities they will use, how many monsters there will be, what types, etc etc. If the overall experience(not to be confused with XP) was less static, then dungeons might see more visitors. And, to be perfectly honest, as it pertains to keeping dungeons appealing to re-visit, implementing the loot-level restrictions has had a negative effect. Just like I said it would. I don't know that there's anything that can be done to inspire RP reasons in players to go to dungeons, it's not like BG is particularly rife with an abundance of RP at the moment.
User avatar
Alexander Holgart
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:48 am

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by Alexander Holgart »

Steve wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:03 am
gedweyignasia wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 8:50 am
Steve wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 6:19 am I don’t understand why you are putting so much effort in tying to rewrite the fundamentals of the D&D game format.
It looks like our dungeons simply aren't fun, and I'm intent on fixing that. Adventuring might be your character's occupation, but it should feel like a game or an adventure, not work.
It’s strange to me that you think BGTSCC dungeons aren’t fun. Is that because your data says players spend little time in them, compared to Wyvern killing?!?

That answer is obvious, and has no relation to fun/no fun.

In my own opinion, dungeons on BGTSCC are great fun. They however do not provide the same high level reward as open Areas/maps do, as in, XP gain reward.

I’d bet you money that before chests were limited to once-per-reset looting, when a Player had 3 chances per Reset, players spent MUCH MORE time in dungeons, because there rewards were greater.

This is why I ask you why you’re trying to rewrite the D&D game when it’s not in itself broken, nor is BGTSCC broken. If literally every responder in this thread says rewards are fun, but you Ged are saying “you should find fun without rewards,” don’t you see the inconsistency there?

If you want to make adventuring more fun, more like a game and less like work, then do the obvious: make rewards easier to get and more plentiful. And, the rewards that players want!!!! The Players!!
Just a quick intervention to ask to keep this as much as on topic as possible, also please let's not tease each other on a personal level.

The request was simple, what feels as a reward in a dungeon apart from loot?

The scarcity of said rewards is another matter entirely, this thread was meant to ask if there is anything else on top of that, that would make dungeons better and a more entertaining experience.
User avatar
Snarfy
Posts: 1403
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:14 pm

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by Snarfy »

Steve wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:03 am In my own opinion, dungeons on BGTSCC are great fun. They however do not provide the same high level reward as open Areas/maps do, as in, XP gain reward.

I’d bet you money that before chests were limited to once-per-reset looting, when a Player had 3 chances per Reset, players spent MUCH MORE time in dungeons, because there rewards were greater.
I second this, I thoroughly enjoy all the dungeons on the server. My only gripes are that that most of them are bloody devoid of any type of treasure(thanks to my level), and that there's no one else in them(perhaps for the same reason? :o ).

During the "each chest can be looted once per reset" era, dungeons were still very busy, but the log-on-and-zerg-chest looters were an issue. The loot iteration after that? Dungeons were packed, you could almost always find someone in any dungeon, be they looter, adventurer, or otherwise. Even before the latest loot restrictions there was a moderate amount of dungeoneers, but activity was definitely on the decline. I don't think this had anything to do with the dungeons themselves, per se, but rather because of fluctuating server population and mentalities gravitating towards churning out kills for XP on exterior maps.
Steve wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:03 am If you want to make adventuring more fun, more like a game and less like work, then do the obvious: make rewards easier to get and more plentiful.
Considering we've gone in the opposite direction in this regard, then yes, this would be a good start in luring people back out into monster infested holes in the ground.
User avatar
gedweyignasia
Custom Content
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:27 pm
Location: EST/UTC-4
Contact:

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by gedweyignasia »

Steve wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:03 am It’s strange to me that you think BGTSCC dungeons aren’t fun. Is that because your data says players spend little time in them, compared to Wyvern killing?!?

If you want to make adventuring more fun, more like a game and less like work, then do the obvious: make rewards easier to get and more plentiful. And, the rewards that players want!!!!
Basically, it looks like the mechanical incentives explain nearly all of players' activities in dungeons. That's a failing on our part, because if dungeons were fun, people would go there to have fun, even without mechanical rewards. If dungeons offer nothing beyond the dopamine hit from mechanical progression, we're getting the fundamentals wrong. This was a very distressing discovery.
Snarfy wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:03 am The main reason combat gets stale in dungeons isn't simply because combat is not enjoyable, it's because the expectation we have of the monsters (in the dungeons) is to never surprise us. We OOC'ly know what to expect every time we enter a dungeon, we know where the bosses are, what abilities they will use, how many monsters there will be, what types, etc etc. If the overall experience(not to be confused with XP) was less static, then dungeons might see more visitors.
This is something that's very hard to implement, but it makes a lot of sense to hear. It's difficult to randomize something so that it's more than just a few different presets, or combinations of presets. NWScript is very limited, and it's both tedious and inefficient to design complicated systems in it. Simple randomization like you see in Ulcaster's required some hackish tricks. I would like to fulfill this request, but I don't think I can do so very well.
User avatar
Snarfy
Posts: 1403
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:14 pm

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by Snarfy »

gedweyignasia wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:29 am This is something that's very hard to implement, but it makes a lot of sense to hear. It's difficult to randomize something so that it's more than just a few different presets, or combinations of presets. NWScript is very limited, and it's both tedious and inefficient to design complicated systems in it. Simple randomization like you see in Ulcaster's required some hackish tricks. I would like to fulfill this request, but I don't think I can do so very well.
Maybe start with a few small tweaks, bosses spawning in alternate locations, a variation of yellow named mob types appearing, upping the loot quality on drops a smidge. Anything that is out of the norm really, start there and build on that.

Two other things that come to mind, and I know this has been suggested before, but some sort of bounty hunting quest that draws people to a dungeon. Perhaps the target can even flee and relocate to a different dungeon when it's HP gets low, but it will only flee so many times. Lastly: DM's running one-off's in dungeons... nothing too elaborate, just a quick and satisfying little adventure to give characters something to flock to, and talk about later. Many of my favorite memories are of instances where DM so and so dumped X Y Z in one place or another and told a little story while doing it.
There are no level 30's, only level 20's with benefits...
User avatar
Steve
Recognized Donor
Posts: 7894
Joined: Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:42 am
Location: Paradise in GMT +1

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by Steve »

gedweyignasia wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 9:29 am
Basically, it looks like the mechanical incentives explain nearly all of players' activities in dungeons. That's a failing on our part, because if dungeons were fun, people would go there to have fun, even without mechanical rewards.
Why do you hold the opinion that mechanical incentives are NOT ENOUGH REASON for fun? We players CAN role-play our way towards mechanical incentives just fine.

Why in the world would any sane adventure go into a dungeon to face off against possible Death, unless a supposed Reward is equally possible?

The name of this game might be Dungeons & Dragons, but the foundation, the base structure, the DNA, is Risk vs. Reward. Action = Consequence.

When you want dungeons to be something other than this, I see you misinterpreting the Game.

ARTHAYER ZORASTRYL — A Magistrati & Magefriend [Bio] * [The Wanderings of...]
PANLOS PAWFOOT — The Essential Nature of...
ERMMAR STONESORROW — Cavestalker of the Darkshard Deviants. Herb Trader.
User avatar
gedweyignasia
Custom Content
Posts: 1288
Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:27 pm
Location: EST/UTC-4
Contact:

Re: What kind of dungeons would you enjoy visiting, if there were no rewards? (XP, loot, etc.)

Unread post by gedweyignasia »

Steve wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 10:03 amWhy do you hold the opinion that mechanical incentives are NOT ENOUGH REASON for fun? We players CAN role-play our way towards mechanical incentives just fine.
I understand your point, but this isn't the thread in which to debate that. If you would like to make another thread for that, please do.
Post Reply

Return to “Areas”