Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

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Flatted Fifth
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

I think the idea is that building to include tumble gives such a mechanical advantage over not doing so that it's unfair to those who would rather build for rp than throw in the minimum 3 kevels of swash and rhe able learner feat

that's why i proposed everyone get an ac boost based on their BAB (1 ac per 7 AB was my suggestion based in part on level 7 being the 1st tcurrent tumble ac and because it would result in most rogues and monks getting the same as they do now, most fighter, rangers, etc getting one more, and wizards and sorc getting one less). The more combat oriented the character, the higher the boost


for the record, that suggestion, if agreeable to the team, would result in 4 of my 5 characters keeping the exact same AC they have now. Only my paladin would see an improvement. That's kinda the idea, though. Also I think soells that alter AB like Divine Power and Tensers Transformation should be changed to increase AC in accordance with the temp AB

Alternately, and more easily, firget tumble ac and give everyone +1 ac every 10 levels starting at level 7 with the ligic that not getting hit is a learned survival trait. Then you don't have so much work to do rebalancing PvE
Last edited by Flatted Fifth on Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Steve
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

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Flatted Fifth wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:34 pm I think the idea is that building to include tumble gives such a mechanical advantage over not doing so that it's unfair to those who would rather build for rp than throw in the minimum 3 kevels of swash and rhe able learner feat
But isn't this already the case? Imho, all builds are RP builds. If a player chooses focus on social skills, or oddities over power in fighting/spellcasting/sneaking/etc., then that is the prerogative of the player.

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Flatted Fifth
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

Steve wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:48 pm
Flatted Fifth wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 3:34 pm I think the idea is that building to include tumble gives such a mechanical advantage over not doing so that it's unfair to those who would rather build for rp than throw in the minimum 3 kevels of swash and rhe able learner feat
But isn't this already the case? Imho, all builds are RP builds. If a player chooses focus on social skills, or oddities over power in fighting/spellcasting/sneaking/etc., then that is the prerogative of the player.
A player who chooses not to add 3 levels of swash to their 14 dex druid should not be mechanically punished for making the right choice, rp wise People should be rewarded for their build reflecting their story, not for going through strenuous twists of logic to make a story fit a mechanically advantageous but rp clunky build

If everyone got +1 ac at lvls 7, 17, and 27 then you and I won't get slaughtered in PvE, we'd get more points for bluff and diplomacy and other social (if we have mobility or spring attack), little or no rebalance necessary, and builds who chose rp over tumble will get reward. Everyone wins
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

Rhifox wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:31 am
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In the Time of Troubles patch, a comprehensive rework of melee combat will be released. This rework grants various combat maneuvers to all characters, as well as a new combat GUI attached to the mode bar which will allow for easy use of these features.

Image

A 100% RCR will be offered to affected characters in this patch. More details will be given closer to launch.

The following changes are planned:

Grappling (quickened action)
Hidden: show
Type of Feat: General
Specifics: Grappling means wrestling and struggling hand-to-hand. It's tricky to perform, but sometimes you want to pin foes instead of killing them, and sometimes you have no choice in the matter. For monsters, grappling can mean trapping you in a toothy maw (the purple worm's favorite tactic) or holding you down so it can claw you to pieces (the dire lion's trick).

<b>Grapple Checks</b>
Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your attack bonus on a grapple check is:

<b>Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier</b>

<i>Special Size Modifier:</i> The special size modifier for a grapple check is as follows: Huge +8, Large +4, Medium +0, Small -4, Tiny -8. This number is used in place of the normal size modifier used when making attack rolls.

<b>Starting a Grapple</b>
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires you to have a free hand, and you must make a successful melee touch attack roll.

<i>Step 1: Attack of Opportunity.</i> You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, you must make a Concentration check or the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.)

<i>Step 2: Grab.</i> You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails.

<i>Step 3: Hold.</i> You make an opposed grapple check. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling. Once grappling, neither target can move.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

<b>If You're Grappling</b>
When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions are full round actions.

<i>Release Your Hold:</i> You can always voluntarily release your hold on another character. However, once you are in a grapple, you are also being held. For a grapple to end peacefully, both characters must release their hold.

<i>Activate a Magic Item:</i> You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn't require a spell completion trigger (such as a scroll does).

<i>Attack Your Opponent:</i> You can make attacks with unarmed strikes, natural weapons, or light weapons against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks. You can't attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

<i>Cast a Spell:</i> You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than one round and it has no somatic or material components. If the spell is one that you can cast while grappling, you must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose the spell.

<i>Escape from a Grapple:</i> You can escape a grapple by winning an opposed grapple check in place of your normal round. You can also make an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check, if it is higher.

<i>Pin Your Opponent:</i> You can hold your opponent down by winning an opposed grapple check as a full round action. Once you have an opponent pinned, you have a few options available to you (see below).

<b>If You're Pinning an Opponent</b>
Once you've pinned your opponent, he's at your mercy. Neither of you can make attacks or cast spells against one another, but you have several other options you can use instead. As long as you do nothing else, you can hold a pinned opponent indefinitely (or until he makes a successful grapple check to escape from the pin). You may also attempt to attack your target with an unarmed strike. If you attempt an attack while pinning, your first attack is spent on maintaining the pin with an opposed grapple check. If you fail this check, you lose the pin and all your other attacks for that round.

<i>Execute Your Opponent:</i> While pinning, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. If you win, you deal lethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). Unless you are a monk, you take a -4 penalty on your grapple check.

<i>Incapacitate Your Opponent:</i> You can attempt to incapacitate your opponent instead of executing them. This ability is identical to execution, but the damage is nonlethal rather than lethal, and non-monks do not take the -4 penalty on the grapple check.
Use: Selected.
Special: All characters receive this feat for free.
Improved Grapple
Hidden: show
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Specifics: You are skilled in martial arts that emphasize holds and throws. You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you make a touch attack to start a grapple. You also gain a +4 bonus on all grapple checks (regardless of whether you started the grapple).
Use: Automatic.
Grapple Focus (+Greater, ++ Epic)
Hidden: show
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1 or higher.
Required for: Greater Grapple Focus (fighter only).
Specifics: A character with this feat is particularly skilled at grappling, gaining a +1 bonus on all grapple checks (regardless of whether you started the grapple).
Use: Automatic.
Legendary Wrestler
Hidden: show
Type of Feat: Epic
Prerequisite: 21st level, Str 21, Dex 21, Escape Artist 15, Improved Unarmed Strike.
Specifics: You are exceptionally proficient at grappling. You gain a +4 bonus on all grapple checks (regardless of whether you started the grapple).
Use: Automatic.
Knockdown (+Improved) (quickened action)
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Type of Feat: General
Specifics: A character with this feat can attempt a special knockdown attempt. A character may only knock down creatures that are one size larger than itself or less. The attacker a melee touch attack against his target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the attacker's target. If the touch attack succeeds, the attacker makes a d20 roll modified by his strength bonus, and the difference between his creature size and the target creature size times 4. The defender makes a d20 roll modified by the better of his strength and dexterity bonus. If the attacker meets or beats the defender's roll, the defender is knocked down. If the attacker loses the opposed check, the defender may immediately react and make a strength check opposed by the attacker's dexterity or strength check to try and knock him down.

Prone characters cannot attack. Characters receive a +4 bonus to attack prone opponents in melee, but a -4 penalty to attack them with a ranged weapon.

Some weapons can be used to make knockdown attacks. If a valid weapon is used, the attacker is disarmed if he loses the opposed check instead of provoking a knockdown attempt by the defender. Valid weapons include flails, halberds, kamas, scythes, sickles, and whips.

A character with Improved Knockdown can attempt to knock an opponent down as an instant action, and no longer provokes an attack of opportunity when making a knockdown attempt. In addition, he gains a +4 bonus on the strength check to knock an opponent down.
Use: Selected.
Special: All characters receive this feat for free.
Disarm (+Improved) (quickened action)
Hidden: show
Type of Feat: General
Specifics: The character can perform a disarm maneuver that does no damage, provokes an attack of opportunity, but potentially renders the target unarmed. The attacker and the defender make opposed attack rolls with their respective weapons. The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the attacker meets or beats the defender's roll, the defender's weapon is disarmed. If the defender beats the attacker's roll, he may immediately react and attempt to disarm the attacker with the same sort of opposed melee attack roll. This attempt does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

The attacker can attempt to disarm the defender's mainhand weapon, their offhand weapon (but not shields), or their hands. If the defender wins the opposed attack roll, his disarm automatically targets the attacker's mainhand weapon.

Some weapons give a bonus on disarm attacks. If a valid weapon is used, the attacker gains a +2 bonus on the attack roll to disarm his opponent. Valid weapons include flails and whips.

A character with Improved Disarm gains a +4 bonus on the opposed attack roll he makes to disarm his opponent and no longer provokes an attack of opportunity. In addition, the opponent does not receive a chance to disarm the character.
Use: Selected.
Special: All characters receive this feat for free.
Feint (+Improved) (quickened action basic, instant action improved)
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Type of Feat: General
Specifics: The Feint feat can be used to deny your opponent their DEX bonus to AC for a combat round. In order for it to succeed you make a Bluff check with a target DC of the target's Base Attack Bonus plus their Spot skill. Regardless of whether their DEX bonus is removed, you only get a single attack that round (but Haste does stack with it). This feat is especially useful for rogues who can Sneak Attack with it. Any non-humanoid gets a +4 bonus to its DC. And against anything with a 1 or 2 intelligence it gets a +8 bonus to its DC. You can't feint against a non-intelligent creature.

A character with the Improved Feint feat only loses one attack when making a Bluff check to feint. A cleric with the Trickery domain receives the Improved Feint for free, even if he does not meet the prerequisites.
Use: Selected.
Special: All characters receive this feat for free.
Create Diversion (full round action; Huge AOE centered on character)
Hidden: show
Type of Feat: General
Specifics: You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check opposed a Sense Motive check by all creatures within a Huge radius of you gives you the momentary diversion you need to Hide while people are aware of you. This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Use: Selected.
Special: All characters receive this feat for free.
Shield Bash (+Improved) (instant action, mode)
Hidden: show
Type of Feat: General
Specifics: You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action.

A character with the Improved Shield Bash feat can bash with a shield while retaining its shield bonus to Armor Class.
Use: Selected.
Special: All characters receive this feat for free.
Fighting Defensively (instant action, mode)
Hidden: show
Type of Feat: General
Specifics: You can take a penalty of -4 on your attack modifier and add +2 as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus.
Use: Combat Mode.
Special: All characters receive this feat for free.
Combat Expertise (instant action, mode)
Hidden: show
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Int 13+, base attack bonus +1.
Required for: Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Knockdown, Whirlwind Attack
Specifics: You can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack modifier and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus.
Use: Combat Mode.
Parry/Total Defense (instant action, mode)
Hidden: show
Ability: Dexterity.
Requires Training: No.
Classes: All.

Total Defense allows the character to block and parry incoming attacks and make spectacular counterattacks. The character receives a +4 dodge bonus to armor class, but is unable to make regular attacks, cast spells, or use items. This dodge bonus increases by +2 if the character has 5 or more ranks in Total Defense. This bonus increases to +6 if the character has 25 or more ranks in Total Defense, for a total of +10 bonus to AC.

Check: The DC is the modified attack roll of the incoming blow. A successful Total Defense check means that the attack does not damage the character, even if the roll would have overcome the character's armor class. A character may only block a number of attacks per round equal to the number of attacks per round available to the character.
Special: If Total Defense is successful and the difference between the roll and the DC is ten points or greater, a counterattack occurs. A counterattack is a free attack made by the character against the blocked opponent. The first counterattack in a round is made with a full attack bonus and subsequent counterattacks are made at -5, -10, -15, and so on.
Use: Select the Total Defense mode. The character will remain in Total Defense mode until the mode is exited. Characters cannot use items or cast spells while Total Defense mode is active.
Tumble
Hidden: show
Ability: Dexterity.
Requires Training: Yes.
Classes: All.

The character with high tumbling is able to roll away from attacks during combat, positioning themselves safely at all times. When using the Fighting Defensively action, a character with 5 or more ranks in Tumble gains a +1 dodge bonus to armor class. This bonus increases to +3 if the character has 25 or more ranks in Tumble.
Check: DC 15 to avoid attack of opportunity while moving. DC 25 to move through an enemy's space, increasing by +2 for each additional enemy. DC 35 to kip-up after being knocked down.
Use: Automatic.
Other Class and Feat Changes
Thief Acrobat
Hidden: show
Kip-Up: Changed from capstone feat to 1st level feat. Automatically succeeds at Tumble checks to stand up immediately after being knocked down (functionally 2 seconds of knockdown rather than the normal 6).

Agile Fighting: First bonus is now given at 2nd level instead of 1st. This bonus increases to +2 at 4th level. Agile Fighting grants immunity to knockdown at 4th level.

Improved Knockdown: Now granted at 3rd level instead of 2nd.

Springboard: Lasts only one round, instead of two. DC now uses TA class level x2 instead of HD/2. Moved to capstone slot.

All Thief Acrobat abilities no longer work if the character is using a shield heavier than light.
Duelist
Hidden: show
Elaborate Parry: No longer gives extra deflection AC per 6 ranks of Parry. Now gives a dodge bonus to AC equal to the number of levels the character has in Duelist when using Fighting Defensively or Total Defense/Parry. (this means a Duelist 10 with >=25 Tumble and >=25 Total Defense/Parry gets -4 AB +15 AC when Fighting Defensively and +20 AC when in Total Defense/Parry.
Man-at-Arms
Hidden: show
Tumble: No longer a class skill.
Armor Optimization
Hidden: show
No longer applies to light armor.
Weapon, Shield, and Armor Proficiency
Hidden: show
All characters can equip all weapons and armor, regardless of if they have the appropriate proficiency. When using weapons that you aren't proficient in, you receive a -4 to the attack roll. When using armor or shields that you aren't proficient in, you receive the armor or shield's armor check penalty to attack rolls and all physical skills (Tumble, Parry, Escape Artist, Survival, Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Disable Device, Set Trap, Concentration, Sleight of Hand, and Spellcraft.)

Other notes:
- Disarm no longer checks disarm flags on creature blueprints. It will work on all creatures with weapons.
- Tumble no longer gives +1 passive AC for every 10 ranks. Its bonuses are applied to the fighting defensively mode instead, as noted in the Fighting Defensively section.
- Fighting Defensively and the changes to Combat Expertise should ensure that its AB penalties apply to touch attacks. Spells and items can still be used while in these modes, though this may change in the future. Spells and items cannot be used with Total Defense.
- Freedom of Movement can be used to defend against grappling from PCs or Bigby spells.
- Combat GUI can be used while in other forms. This may require changes to polymorph/shapechange/wildshape.

Other features may be included with this patch. This post will be updated if needed.
Did you get the chance to look into the Defensive stance for Dwarven defenders? That is the one feat that deserves a new mode, or some kind of synergy with fighting defensively.
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Rhifox
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by Rhifox »

mrm3ntalist wrote: Mon Jun 06, 2022 8:29 pmDid you get the chance to look into the Defensive stance for Dwarven defenders? That is the one feat that deserves a new mode, or some kind of synergy with fighting defensively.
Haven't had time. But one thing I'd like to do is give DD 8's their Mobile Defense feature, allowing them to move small distances once a round while in stance.

In any case, one can use Fighting Defensively and Defensive Stance simultaneously. And the new CE, for that matter.
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Theodore01
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by Theodore01 »

What will happen to all the paid for and contracted named summons, if we have to RCR almost every toon for the combat upgrade and tumble changes?
Do we have to pay them all again?

And what is worse, there is a chance that other players can bind/use that summon while we do that RCR and therefore the contract binding is nullified.

Now I'm glad I only have a few of them. :lol:
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Rhifox
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by Rhifox »

Theodore01 wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:07 am What will happen to all the paid for and contracted named summons, if we have to RCR almost every toon for the combat upgrade and tumble changes?
Do we have to pay them all again?
Like storage, as long as your name doesn't change, named and contracted summons remain usable. I know this as someone that's had to rebind her named summons before after doing a name change. :D
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by Terankar »

Shifter gains kd per their kit, same for monks and a few other classes.

Will they get replaced?
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by renshouj »

To add to the Shifter question.

Gelatinous Cube has Engulf, which is kind of a grapple. But it seems it's strictly worse than the grapple you're implementing here. Any chance that can be looked at?

As in, Cube's grapple is "SHIFTER_LEVEL + STRENGTH", while base grapple will be "Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier".

Cube's engulf has some extra goodies, but might fall behind though it is the main thing Cube has going for it.
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

renshouj wrote: Tue Jun 07, 2022 2:10 pm To add to the Shifter question.

Gelatinous Cube has Engulf, which is kind of a grapple. But it seems it's strictly worse than the grapple you're implementing here. Any chance that can be looked at?

As in, Cube's grapple is "SHIFTER_LEVEL + STRENGTH", while base grapple will be "Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier".

Cube's engulf has some extra goodies, but might fall behind though it is the main thing Cube has going for it.
Engulf is a little bit different since it doesn't allow target to do anything while engulfed while it doesn't block Gelly Cube's stuff at all.
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by Tuck »

When will this update be implemented?
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by spyvsspy »

What will the whips become? Offering Improved Disarm? Since they offer Disarm(whip) feat original

And Rali's belt of mischief, which offers Fient now
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Whips: Nothing. In fact, the feat may need to be removed from existing whips (not sure, someone correct me on this?), as the revamped Disarm feat is a whole new feat with its own ID and everything.

Reili's Belt: I assume it will grant Improved Feint?
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by Theodore01 »

Will knockdown from shifters wyvern, werewolf, owlbear become improved KD or do they get something else instead?
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Re: Coming Soon: Melee Combat Upgrade

Unread post by Rhifox »

spyvsspy wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 7:59 am What will the whips become? Offering Improved Disarm? Since they offer Disarm(whip) feat original

And Rali's belt of mischief, which offers Fient now
Whips will no longer give Improved Disarm, but instead all disarming attacks made with whips (along with a few other weapons) will have a +2 bonus to the attempt.

Belt of Mischief will still give Feint, that'll just be called Improved Feint instead (unless I can't get the basic free Feint to work, as there are issues with it).
Theodore01 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:53 am Will knockdown from shifters wyvern, werewolf, owlbear become improved KD or do they get something else instead?
Improved KD, yes.
Tuck wrote: Wed Jun 08, 2022 12:30 pm When will this update be implemented?
Sometime this month.
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