NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

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Theodore01
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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

Unread post by Theodore01 »

AC81 wrote:What about DC10 + WD level + Chr mod + (best of base intimidate/2 or base perform/2) ... capped at 35.

So, with a crap chr mod (say chr 10), max would be 31. With a 12 chr (+1 mod, which is easy to get with a +3 item), you'd be back to the originally proposed 32DC. This allows for the ability to be raised through specialisation. Remember, for orcs, it is a little bit trickier to get that charisma up.
Such a change would screw existing builds, who have split points in intim. and perf. With the full RCR gone, that would just suck.
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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

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aaron22 wrote:perhaps an explanation for this would set me and you on the same line of reasoning.
I'm going to explain it. Steve to the rescue!!

Orc War March Part 1: Battle Rhythm +2. Provides the OWD and Group + 2 to AB/DMG. That does equal 4 Epic Strengths Feats, if you want a simple calculation for comparison. Four. Epic. Feats. You also realize this +2 dmg multiplies on a Crit? That is +8 potential dmg for that Orc Weapon Master. Per hit. Result: your Orc and his War Party kill things faster.

Orc War March Part 2: Inspire Fear. 32 DC save every round. That means 99% of enemies are going to fail this save, at least a few times, during an Encounter. That is a given, based on how crap the NWN2 engine is. Granted, those with Steadfast Determination won' fail this Save on a 1, but very few builds with Steadfast have 32 Will save, so still, there is a likelihood they'll fail this save.

Now, what happens if they fail? For a round, they have a -2 to AB/dmg and saves. All Saves!! A -2 AB is like having +2 AC, which is also 2–4 Epic (Ability) Feats. Add to that -2 DMG, that is like having 2/- DR, another Epic Feat gained. -2 Saves is just additionally helpful in other ways...you just need to think about it.

Now, what I would ask here is: how long does the debuff last? 1 round only? Maybe in practice one won't see that much debuffing, but I think based on the how the engine works, and for soooo many mobs—though less PCs—it will be working ALL THE BLOODY TIME.!

Orc War March Part 3: Simultaneously usage. The fact that a OWD gets these 2 feats working constantly and simutaneously, is pretty major. Together, if both Inspire Fear and Battle Rhythm are working, you get a +2 AB / + 2 DMG / +2 AC / +2 DR. Dude!!! :shock: That not only equals but bests 8 cumulative Bard-progression levels...for only 5 OWD levels.

Now, for farts and laughs, lets also throw into this PrC the Orders to Charge, which grants 1 minute of +1 AC, 30% fast movement, Furious Charger and Dire Charge (= dmg). :roll: Awesome.

I hope you see it now, Aaron. The OWD should be an awesome addition to ANY Orc War party. And if an Orc War Party doesn't have one, I think they deserve to die on the battlefield.

I mean...just imagine if actual mobs had this PrC in them?!? :twisted:

EDIT: And...what are the possibilities of 2+ OWD working in tamdem?!?!

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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

Unread post by aaron22 »

steve... I totally get all the details of the PrC. that is not what I called out for as an explanation.

I asked for an explanation on why the stance on the DC cap, when I think it makes little to no difference to the effectiveness while stifling its RP value. if there is a clear and visible reason that I am not seeing (I am not as in the know as vale,chad,mrM) to initiate such a cap then I could possibly gain a better understanding and not continue to try to swim up a stream that I am unaware is flowing much greater than I believe.
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Steve
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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

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aaron22 wrote:I asked for an explanation on why the stance on the DC cap,
Because anything above 32 probably equals a certified bonus using the Feat, whereas under 32, the receiver of this Inspire Fear actually has a chance to Save against it (sometimes).

This is especially critical with combining the -2 Saves debuff with other DC spells (or other On Hit properties that force a Save of any type). To get +2 DC (or, in this case +2 DC by applying -2 Saves) costs a Feat...Alone. Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Epic Spell Focus...these all cost a Feat.

Inspire Fear gives pretty much 3 Feats (or more) worth of power, in 1 Feat granted by the PrC, in an attribute that is constantly on, with a decent range, and not only helps the caster, but all within his/her party.

So, setting the Cap higher, only makes the PrC far better than it already is, and that a DC of 32 is GREAT in power mechanics, since it is a constant thing (unlike a arcane/divine caster with a 3x per day casting of a 40s DC). A 32 DC available all day every day without fail is on balance.

Maybe you just don't like THAT balance? I don't always like those "balances" either mate, but hey...its Their world, we just live in it!! 8-)

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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

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it is defiantly not that I do not like the balance, but I am not ashamed to say that it could be perceived this way. nor am I ashamed to admit that this will not or has not occurred. I honestly do not see a significant difference mechanically between a DC of 32 and 42. remember this is a fear triggered save. 32 is as vale said. high enough mechanically. I see this like having 65AC vs 70AC. in game PvE that would have very little difference. but that would make a HUGE difference in PvP. the DC of war march could be a million and it would be the nearly same as 32 in PvP. a power plea is NOT what I am doing here.

this actually came about due to me imagining trying to RP with PCs that multiple may have OWD. (IKR a pipe dream) how would I determine which OWD is a better one. do I even want to? do I even need to? with a cap in place there is no function to the RP around the PrC. They are, in a sense, all the same. How much would I love to be able to place one in each "War Band" and have the numbers to support this, but that is unlikely. So I prepare with what I have and what I deem reasonable.

we all know and I do not need to defend that, the numbers dictate the RP. perhaps it should be inverted but it rarely is. so with all OWDs numbers the same, they are essentially watered down in RP. I honestly hate that. this I think was an oversight and to the defense of the team that developed it. a small one. but it is an oversight. I could have just said this portion, but instead of just a generalistic (is that a word?) blast of the design flaw. I offered a solution. it is not the only solution, but the one I think delivers the most value to the RP and the least effect to the powerlevel.
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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

Unread post by Valefort »

Two straight bards will have the same inspirations, will they be the same ? Not really.
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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

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aaron22 wrote:I honestly do not see a significant difference mechanically between a DC of 32 and 42.
10 pts is a pretty big difference. In my opinion, this would mean the precise difference between Inspire Fear always working versus working enough to be very useful.

I'm pretty sure QC has done the right thing by making sure such a powerful set of Affects don't work all the time. But like I said...they will probably work enough of the time to actually see a significant benefit.
aaron22 wrote:but that would make a HUGE difference in PvP. the DC of war march could be a million and it would be the nearly same as 32 in PvP.
Well, this is an issue—QC does not balance for PvP, unless it is unfair (and...unless they've changed their own QC guidelines).

If you thought that an Orc PrC needed to be made so Orcs could give the beat down in PvP, then...you can with a very wrong assumption, which not surprisingly, has let you down.

A DC of 1,000,000 is SIGNIFICANTLY better than one of 32!! lol. But let me remind you of something: War March is both Battle Rhythm and Inspire Fear. Only the latter has a DC, so with one Toggle, your Orc War Drummer is getting a Constant as well as a Great Possibility for even more Power.

Now, on your suggestion that a 32 DC cap makes for a cookie cutter build. All I can say is: c'mon Aaron! You must put on another set of glasses to look at what your saying, and how that just isn't true.

Because, OWD can combine with a DC Cleric build, or a melee build, or a hybrid build, and each is different in how OWD can make their mechanics better, and...that doesn't even touch how the RP of an OWD can differ.

Anyway...love ya Aaron! :


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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

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C14/H10/OWD3/BG3- CL31, -2 ENEMY saves with potential for -4. Decent charisma and improved divine spell power to potentially increase caster level and DC.

F12/WoD10/OWD5/BG3- EDM with BG aura to help OWD have an effective DC of 34, all the fighter feats with bonus ab/ damage/ dr from OWD and WoD.

B20/DC5/OWD5 - saves, bonus feats, and divine wrath plus rage and OWD benefits.

Very different builds/ characters that all benefit from OWD for different reasons.
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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

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chad878262 wrote:F12/WoD10/OWD5/BG3- EDM with BG aura to help OWD have an effective DC of 34, all the fighter feats with bonus ab/ damage/ dr from OWD and WoD.
Yeah, a build like this just wins with having OWD.

But really...imagine ALL the options, together. Like, a group of different builds with OWD! These OWD debuffs STACK on mobs and PCs in PvP...

...what is an Orc if not a reflection of his Horde!!! :twisted:

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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

Unread post by chad878262 »

Steve wrote:
chad878262 wrote:F12/WoD10/OWD5/BG3- EDM with BG aura to help OWD have an effective DC of 34, all the fighter feats with bonus ab/ damage/ dr from OWD and WoD.
Yeah, a build like this just wins with having OWD.

But really...imagine ALL the options, together. Like, a group of different builds with OWD! These OWD debuffs STACK on mobs and PCs in PvP...

...what is an Orc if not a reflection of his Horde!!! :twisted:
^^^^^gets it.
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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

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No the debuffs don't stack for 2 OWDs (once again same as bards there).
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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

Unread post by chad878262 »

No but it's a lot of users of orders to charge...
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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

Unread post by Valefort »

Yes, frankly this PRC is much more susceptible to be nerfed than the contrary imo.
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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

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Valefort wrote:No the debuffs don't stack for 2 OWDs (once again same as bards there).
So, you're saying that if a single mob encountered 2 OWD with War March active, they would never experience more that -2 AB/-2dmg/-2 saves?

Because wouldn't a single mob have to Save against 2 independent Inspire Fears?

I wasn't assuming Battle Rhythm would stack, but like Expose Weakness negative AC stacking, the debuffs would stack.

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Re: NEXT UPDATE : Orcish War Drummer

Unread post by aaron22 »

Valefort wrote:Yes, frankly this PRC is much more susceptible to be nerfed than the contrary imo.
ok lets say the "orders to charge" gives a reason to have variable numbers to the perform and intim skill. the O2C acts as follows. this would make for a

Orders to Charge: At 4th level a War Drummer is able to signal the charge in a particularly enthralling way. The nearby allies gain bonuses depending upon intimidation skill.

1-10: 20% movement speed as well as the benefits of furious charger
11-20: 25% movement speed as well as the benefits of furious charger and dire charge.
21-30: 30% movement speed, +1 Dodge AC as well as the benefits of furious charger and dire charge
31+: 35% movement speed, +1 Dodge AC, Magic DR x/- where x= perform ranks/6 as well as the benefits furious charger and dire charge

bonus lasts for 1rd per perform ranks/2
cooldown= 4 mins

this gives a nice boost to the secondary ability if built for it and really sets apart those that build for the intention of being a focused OWD. this also slightly nerfs ones who are just building with the war march in mind. it is the primary feat after all.

@steve. I am not talking about PvP building. I was trying to point out that PvP building is a waste of time with OWD. the fear dc will either work or it wont in PvP no matter the DC. in PvP you have a whole different set of criteria you want to look at and save vs fear that is not an instakill is possibly the lowest on that list. I know that the team doesn't look at that stuff unless it becomes a problem or they foresee one. not on their radar and not on mine either.
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