Scrolls need a lot of rework.

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Flatted Fifth
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Scrolls need a lot of rework.

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

True Seeing Scrolls purchased from the Thayan embassy in BG don't work, which would be understandable if True Seeing were a divine-only spell, but it's not. It's also an arcane spell. So after spending a fair amount of gold buying a stockpile of 20 that I wanted to use against enemies with displacement (not having any spare feats for blind fight) I found out they don't work at all. Just gets message "Nothing happens when you use this item".

If you're going to make divine scrolls not function, fine, but arcane scrolls should simply be subject to the same wild magic as normal spells. And any spells that are both arcane and divine should be either defaulted to arcane version or there should be two separate versions, one for arcanists and one for divine casters, and we should be able to tell them apart by their "usuable by" properties. The scrolls I have list wizard and sorc in the "usuable by", in addition to divine classes.

Also, I have NEVER seen a divine scroll that lists Favoured Soul in its "usuable by". These true seeing scrolls I bought with my rogue list cleric, sorc, wizard, druid, and spirit shaman. No mention of favoured soul, and yet my favoured soul character can cast the spell.
EasternCheesE
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Re: Scrolls need a lot of rework.

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

Flatted Fifth wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:42 am True Seeing Scrolls purchased from the Thayan embassy in BG don't work, which would be understandable if True Seeing were a divine-only spell, but it's not. It's also an arcane spell. So after spending a fair amount of gold buying a stockpile of 20 that I wanted to use against enemies with displacement (not having any spare feats for blind fight) I found out they don't work at all. Just gets message "Nothing happens when you use this item".

If you're going to make divine scrolls not function, fine, but arcane scrolls should simply be subject to the same wild magic as normal spells. And any spells that are both arcane and divine should be either defaulted to arcane version or there should be two separate versions, one for arcanists and one for divine casters, and we should be able to tell them apart by their "usuable by" properties. The scrolls I have list wizard and sorc in the "usuable by", in addition to divine classes.

Also, I have NEVER seen a divine scroll that lists Favoured Soul in its "usuable by". These true seeing scrolls I bought with my rogue list cleric, sorc, wizard, druid, and spirit shaman. No mention of favoured soul, and yet my favoured soul character can cast the spell.
Favored sould shares spell list with cleric IIRC, so anything working for cleric works for favored sould, but i may be mistaken.
If you find more non-matching scrolls on vendor, please inform us cause each shop has to be edited separately for scroll blueprints.
Flatted Fifth
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Re: Scrolls need a lot of rework.

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

Yes, favoured soul does have the same spell list as cleric, what concerns me is the "only usable by" property on cleric scrolls never lists favoured soul so I worry that favoured souls cannot actually use the scrolls if they have no levels of cleric when they really ought to be able to. Its hard to know whether they can or not because my favoured soul character has UMD, but I could make a test character and check some shops and get back to you.

Also, the question of those True Seeing scrolls my main bought still remains: why does nothing happen when I use them? If True Seeing were a divine only spell I would understand but it's also a wizard/sorcerer spell. The scrolls I have say that they are usable by wizards and sorcerers so they're clearly not divine only scrolls. And yet they don't work.


ETA: A favoured soul without UMD CAN use a scroll flagged as Cleric use only, so that's good. An arcane spell like true seeing not working from a scroll is still a problem, though.
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Kitunenotsume
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Re: Scrolls need a lot of rework.

Unread post by Kitunenotsume »

Flatted Fifth wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:42 am If you're going to make divine scrolls not function, fine, but arcane scrolls should simply be subject to the same wild magic as normal spells. And any spells that are both arcane and divine should be either defaulted to arcane version or there should be two separate versions, one for arcanists and one for divine casters, and we should be able to tell them apart by their "usuable by" properties. The scrolls I have list wizard and sorc in the "usuable by", in addition to divine classes.
Scrolls are assessed for 'origin' by comparing their innate level of the iprp to the caster classes that can use it.
For True Seeing, that is:
Innate level: 5, Cleric: 5, Druid: 7, Sorcerer/Wizard: 6, Other: Knowledge domain 4
As such, since the Innate Level of True Sight scrolls are 5, all scrolls are assumed to be Divine in origin (As it is Cleric 5), and most items are assumed to be made by the class that produces it most cheaply.
If the Innate level were 6, they would be valid as Arcane, but have an appropriate increase in cost. This is a potential solution, but would not nescessarily affect any existing items.

Please note this is not a defense of the implementation, simply explaining the implementation as it exists currently.
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Flatted Fifth
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Re: Scrolls need a lot of rework.

Unread post by Flatted Fifth »

Kitunenotsume wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 1:57 pm
Flatted Fifth wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:42 am If you're going to make divine scrolls not function, fine, but arcane scrolls should simply be subject to the same wild magic as normal spells. And any spells that are both arcane and divine should be either defaulted to arcane version or there should be two separate versions, one for arcanists and one for divine casters, and we should be able to tell them apart by their "usuable by" properties. The scrolls I have list wizard and sorc in the "usuable by", in addition to divine classes.
Scrolls are assessed for 'origin' by comparing their innate level of the iprp to the caster classes that can use it.
For True Seeing, that is:
Innate level: 5, Cleric: 5, Druid: 7, Sorcerer/Wizard: 6, Other: Knowledge domain 4
As such, since the Innate Level of True Sight scrolls are 5, all scrolls are assumed to be Divine in origin (As it is Cleric 5), and most items are assumed to be made by the class that produces it most cheaply.
If the Innate level were 6, they would be valid as Arcane, but have an appropriate increase in cost. This is a potential solution, but would not nescessarily affect any existing items.

Please note this is not a defense of the implementation, simply explaining the implementation as it exists currently.
That's kinda non-intuitive, I mean... honestly, ALL magic is from the weave, gods just access the weave at a higher ability than mortals are capable of and then pass it on to their worshippers so the REAL "origin" of all magic is arcane, divine casters just get it through a middle-man. That's why I think any spell that is both divine caster and arcane caster, like True Seeing, should default to arcane for purposes of ToT. Otherwise, there should be distinctly different scrolls for each version.
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YourMoveHolyMan
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Re: Scrolls need a lot of rework.

Unread post by YourMoveHolyMan »

I believe they're saying it's a bug and then explaining why it's happening.
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EasternCheesE
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Re: Scrolls need a lot of rework.

Unread post by EasternCheesE »

It's not a bug but rather mechanical issue/limitation. We can't really store any information on what spellbook was used to create a scroll or potion because stacking wipes variables. Thus, we have to invent workarounds for blocking divine casting during ToT. Outside of ToT, we never needed such system because there wasn't selective spellcasting limitations.

Good news is that ToT is temporary so it will start working correct after it finishes.
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