Class Evaluation: Spirit Shaman

[Garn Greymoon]

So this is kind of bouncing back off the FvS discussion but I wanted to brain storm a bit could we look at some of the least attractive classes and see what we could do to make them shine?

The first one that comes to mind:

Spirit Shaman

I've also noticed a few of the spell based PrC have been gutted pretty drastically and class features have been taken away including spell casting progression. Can we look at replacing the gutted features with something in kind that is class appropriate?

[Rhifox]

Shaman is actually not as weak as people presume it is. Yeah okay, MAD sucks, but between the huge number of spells-per-day (as many as favored soul) and the addition of blood magic, shaman on BG can make do with it just fine. And I'd personally be pretty opposed to moving both stats to Cha (which is likely what would happen if a change was made because Owl's Insight + Blood Magic + Wisdom for DCs would be pretty OP).

The biggest issue with shaman, the reason why it's unattractive, is not because of its power. It may not be tier 1 but it is a solid tier 2. Nobody picks it however because druid mechanically does everything shaman does but better. (except for shaman/monk, which is a loophole in the druids-and-monks-can't-multiclass rule).

What shaman does get, is a ton of RP power (when you've got people who recognize what a shaman can do, at least).


Personally, my biggest issues as a shaman player are instead the following:

-Druids get druid spell list, animal companion, and wild shape as their major class abilities. Shamans only get the first, and on BG can get animal companion with a three-feat investment (the highest of any animal companion using class). In exchange, shamans get Chastise/Weaken Spirits, Spirit Form, Spirit Journey, Guide Magic, and Exorcism. Spirit Form is heavily nerfed from its PnP version (Spirit Form should function essentially like Spirit Journey does now, IE Etherealness), while Spirit Journey is supposed to be a teleport (similar to Shadow Walk). Exorcism and Guide Magic are not included in NWN2 at all. Fixing Spirit Form and Spirit Journey so that they work like they are supposed to be would be a great change.

Hidden: show

"Spirit Form (Su): At 9th level and higher, a spirit shaman learns how to temporarily transform herself into a spirit. Once per day, as a standard action, she can make herself incorporeal for up to 1 minute.

While incorporeal, a spirit shaman gains all the advantages of the incorporeal subtype (see the Glossary of the Monster Manual), including immunity to all nonmagical attack forms, a 50% chance to ignore damage from any corporeal source, and the ability to enter or pass through solid objects. The spirit shaman loses any armor or natural armor bonus to AC, but gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum +1).

She has no Strength score against corporeal creatures or objects and cannot make physical attacks against them, but she gains the ability to make a melee touch attack (add the spirit shaman’s Dexterity modifier to her attack roll) that deals 1d6 points of damage to a corporeal target. This effect is treated as a magic weapon for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

...

Spirit Journey (Sp): A spirit shaman knows how to vanish bodily into the spirit world beginning at 17th level. This ability functions like the spell shadow walk, except that a spirit shaman can only transport herself. She need not use the ability in a shadowy area, and she travels through the Plane of Spirits, not the Plane of Shadows. A spirit shaman can use this ability once per day.

-No spell retrieval mechanic. This was one of the key traits of shaman in PnP. I understand it's something that's very difficult in NWN2 though, so I'm okay with what we have instead. It's still a point that bugs me though.

-Druids get medium armor proficiency, even though they are expected to always be in wild shape. Shamans only get light armor proficiency, even though they spend far more time in normal shape (only getting shifting with Shapechange, which has to be dropped anytime you need to cast a spell).

-Druid spell list is strongly designed around animals, because they as a class are strongly themed around animals. Shamans, by merit of having been lazily given the same spell list, have many spell limitations that thematically and mechanically don't make sense. Consider that they only get Greater Magic Fang and Jagged Tooth, when by DEFAULT (Telthor is only a Kaedrin buff) shamans do not get any animal companions and cannot wildshape. Magic Weapon and Keen/Impact would be more appropriate for shamans (actually, having both fang and weapon would be appropriate for a shaman). Shaman should really get its own unique spell list, but this is pretty difficult to do with NWN2.

-Natures Avatar still doesn't work on Telthor, so even with the three-feat investment a shaman's animal companion will still never be as good as a druid's.

-Lack of PRCs. The only primal spellcasting PRC (Stormlord) was made exclusive to Talos worshippers on BG to mimic its PnP form. It is also nerfed to be a reduced spell progression PRC. There are zero full progression primal spellcasting PRCs. Yes, shamans can take warpriest or hierophant (but only by multiclassing, because shamans are the only religious class on BG to not get Lore: Religion as a class skill. Even rangers get it, for some reason) or whatever, but these classes are all thematically designed for clerics.

-RP issue: Shamans in PnP do not have a limited deity selection, but in NWN2 shamans are limited to druid deities. Worse, it appears to be hardcoded that if you have the druid spell list you have the druid deity selection, so this doesn't seem to be easily fixed (I was looking at this earlier today). It thematically makes no sense for shamans to be deity-limited.

-RP issue: Shamans are not druids, but everybody thinks they are. Many players and even DMs consider shamans to only be "spontaneous druids" and fail to recognize the unique differences in a shaman character. This includes things like thinking shamans can only deal with animals and plants like druids (ignoring ancestor and animist beliefs that are also part of the shaman theme), and I've even been denied the ability to speak to an animal's spirit in an event earlier in the year because the DM told me to "talk to it with Animal language" instead.

[Calodan]

ALL PURE MELEE BUILDS!!!

IE BARBARIANS, FIGHTERS, MAN AT ARMS

THESE BUILDS SUFFER THE WORST ON THIS SERVER.

When stacked up with magical builds and the content pure melee builds are in sore need of buffing up to standards.

What would really help a pure melee build is some sort of PRC that grants 12+ Character Level SR. Make it take 10 levels to get and put some other goodies in it. If I remember correctly there is a PRC in D&D that is basically a magic null person. For some reason magic does not work on them or near them. Is it possible to create a PRC that follows this mechanic and make the requirement for taking the PRC NO SPELLS. As in if you have a spell book of any type you can not take this PRC? This would eliminate cross classing certain PRCs that grant magical type things and would be immersion breaking as well. Just a thought.

[Young Werther]

I personally feel like spirit shaman could get a free blind fight feat. But I think it's pretty strong when multiclassed. Blood magic allows you to get another 4 class dip and the sheer amount of spells make being dispelled a bit not so bad.

[Karond]

For spirit shaman, I think going through and editing or adding more creatures that the spirit shaman can affect would help the class greatly.

There is a process going on with adding class kits, and I think the spirit shaman is an ideal candidate for that. Class kits are just "paths", that add bonuses and drawbacks on top of the usual class progression. Unlike the other classes to maybe get kits, one can be far less restrictive and have few drawbacks and more bonuses for whatever different mystical paths a spirit shaman could embark upon.

[Rhifox]

For spirit shaman, I think going through and editing or adding more creatures that the spirit shaman can affect would help the class greatly.

I disagree. Frankly, a shaman's abilities are not actually that powerful as far as fighting spirits goes. You can do more damage per round by simply attacking directly than you will do with Chastise Spirits, for example. I almost never use these abilities simply because it's usually not worth it. The only way to make these abilities actually really needed would be making mobs that have extremely high levels of concealment and similar defenses, which would make Weaken Spirits more useful (or you can just cast Faerie Fire on them...). Another idea could be making Weaken Spirits break Ethereal states, giving a counter to people using Ethereal Jaunt/Etherealness.

Really though, shaman's strength with spirits is in its RP abilities more than its mechanical ones, and I think that's fine. Seeing spirits, negotiating with spirits, being a medium for spirits, those are what the core of a shaman is. The most use I've ever had of Chastise Spirits was using it to put pressure on a spirit during a negotiation in a DM event, rather than anything I've ever done with it in actual combat.

What I think is more useful is changing the two nerfed-from-PnP ones that I mentioned above (Spirit Form and Spirit Journey), because those would be useful all the time. Right now Spirit Form is a useless 5-round Displacement, when in PnP it's basically an Ethereal Jaunt x times per day at a one minute duration, and Spirit Journey is a once-per-day, self-only Shadow Walk.

There is a process going on with adding class kits, and I think the spirit shaman is an ideal candidate for that. Class kits are just "paths", that add bonuses and drawbacks on top of the usual class progression. Unlike the other classes to maybe get kits, one can be far less restrictive and have few drawbacks and more bonuses for whatever different mystical paths a spirit shaman could embark upon.

I've got a few suggestions I'd like to make on shaman kits. I'll post them up sometime later in a thread on the suggestions forum.

[Selande]

Would it be quicker/easier to just let spirit shamans affect Undead targets as a whole?
And elementals.

I don't think Spirit Shaman abilities against Spirits are super powerful to begin with.

[Rhifox]

They already affect elementals, and do affect incorporeal undead at least. Making them affect all undead would be okay, but as said, they're not really all that powerful to begin with and you're almost always better off just fighting as you normally do. Chastise Spirits only really comes into its own if you're being swarmed by spirits, like with any AOE spells.

Now, if there was a single-target save-or-die version of Chastise, that I could see being a bit more useful.

[Garn Greymoon]

So maybe what about something like this:

- Mix up the spells from a combination of cleric / druid
- If animal companions are a strong theme here, maybe they should be allowed to get a spirit companion that is equal to the druids but at a later level or if nothing else perhaps suffer a slight level penalty without all the heavy feat investments. The reason i say this is you still want some kind of class identity and druids sort of have the animal part cornered.
- replace light armor proficiency with medium (this seems like the right thing to do at a min.)
- this next one maybe a bit crazy, but i really like the visual painting i have, so perhaps at 14 or 16 they could have a class feature that essentially let's them cast mirror image (re-flavored as mirror spirit) and be able to cast it as a supernatural ability x times per day + cha or wisdom modifier whichever is more appropriate.
- lastly give the class a + DC / X levels vs. creature sub type: spirit or undead

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Barbarians are a joke sadly. They were clearly meant to be a class that hit like a truck and had lots of hp but little defense so they would soak up damage. In game this translates as low damage easy to kill.

Likewise I cannot come up with a single good use for battlerager. The buy in is so high and benefits so meager that it never seems worth it IMO.

[Rhifox]

- Mix up the spells from a combination of cleric / druid

Some wizard spells are also appropriate for it.

I don't think creating a spell list is easily doable in NWN2 though, so this isn't like an easy change to make.

If a spell list was doable, I've previously put together a concept list that I personally find the most appropriate. It's basically druid spell list plus thematically appropriate enchanting, divination, and undead spells from cleric/wizard, and a few miscellaneous others:

Hidden: show

0 Level: Cure Minor Wounds, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Dry, Flare, Light, Resistance, Rinse, Touch of Fatigue

1st Level: Animal Friendship, Camouflage, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Dancing Lights, Detect Undead, Endure Elements, Enrage Animal, Entangle, Extermination, Faerie Fire, Foundation of Stone, Lesser Vigor, Longstrider, Low-light Vision, Magic Fang, Magic Weapon, Pass Without a Trace, Remove Fear, Shillelagh, Sleep, Snake's Swiftness, Summon Creature I

2nd Level: Animalistic Power, Barkskin, Bear's Endurance, Body of the Sun, Brambles, Briar Web, Bull's Strength, Camouflage Mass, Cat's Grace, Creeping Cold, Dispel Magic Lesser, Eagle's Splendor, Echoes, Find Traps, Flame Weapon, Fox's Cunning, Frost Breath, Frost Weapon, Ghostly Visage, Gust of Wind, Halo of Sand, Healing Sting, Heartfire, Owl's Wisdom, Resist Energy, Restoration Lesser, Scare, See Invisibility, Shield Other, Silence, Snake's Swiftness Mass, Spiritual Weapon, Splinterbolt, Summon Creature II, Trip Vine, Whisper Wind

3rd Level: Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Blind Sight, Blindness/Deafness, Call Lightning, Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, Conjure Shadows, Contagion, Cure Moderate Wounds, Deathsight, Deep Slumber, Dehydrate, Detect Charm, Dominate Animal, Evil Eye, Heroism, Hypothermia, Invisibility Purge, Magic Fang Greater, Magic Weapon Greater, Mass Lesser Vigor, Neutralize Poison, Poison, Protection from Energy, Protection from Insects, Rage, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Searing Light, Spiderskin, Summon Creature III, Vampiric Touch, Vigor, Vine Mine

4th Level: Arc of Lightning, Charm Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Cure Serious Wounds, Detect Scrying, Dismissal, Dispel Magic, Elemental Shield, Energy Buffer, Fear, Flame Strike, Freedom of Movement, Greater Creeping Cold, Greater Resistance, Hold Monster, Ice Storm, Moonbolt, Phantasmal Killer, Scrying, Stoneskin, Summon Creature IV, Tanglefoot, Trace Teleport, True Form, Unluck, Wrack

5th Level: Awaken, Call Shadow Mastiffs, Commune with Nature, Call Lightning Storm, Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Dominate Person, Ethereal Visage, Flaywind Burst, Heal Animal Companion, Inferno, Mass Contagion, Owl's Insight, Protection from Petrification, Rejuvenation Cocoon, Restoration, Sending, Slay Living, Spell Resistance, Summon Creature V, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Wall of Thorns

6th Level: Analyse Dweomer, Call Elementals, Chaos, Conjure Animals, Control Undead, Create Undead, Crumble, Cure Light Wounds Mass, Dispel Magic Greater, Drown, Energy Immunity, Extract Water Elemental, Gaseous Form, Greater Heroism, Greater Stoneskin, Find the Path, Fire Seeds, Legend Lore, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Cat's Grace, Mass Eagle's Splendor, Mass Fox's Cunning, Mass Owl's Wisdom, Primal Speed, Regenerate, Stonehold, Superior Resistance, Tortoise Shell, Undeath to Death, Vigorous Cycle, Wall of Stone

7th Level: Aura of Vitality, Banishment, Conjure Spiders, Creeping Doom, Cure Moderate Wounds Mass, Greater Scrying, Fire Storm, Harm, Heal, Hiss of Sleep, Solipsism, Summon Creature VII, Sunbeam, Swamp Lung, True Seeing

8th Level: Airball, Army of Death, Bombardment, Charm Monster Mass, Create Greater Undead, Cure Serious Wounds Mass, Deadly Lahar, Earthquake, Finger of Death, Greater Bestow Curse, Mass Blindness/Deafness, Phantom Wolf, Premonition, Storm Avatar, Summon Creature VIII, Sunburst, Whirlpool, Whirlwind

9th Level: Burst of Glacial Wrath, Cure Critical Wounds Mass, Dominate Monster, Elemental Swarm, Foresight, Mass Death Ward, Mass Drown, Nature's Avatar, Phantom Bear, Storm of Vengeance, Summon Creature IX, Weird

- If animal companions are a strong theme here, maybe they should be allowed to get a spirit companion that is equal to the druids but at a later level or if nothing else perhaps suffer a slight level penalty without all the heavy feat investments. The reason i say this is you still want some kind of class identity and druids sort of have the animal part cornered.

I feel a kit works best for this.

- lastly give the class a + DC / X levels vs. creature sub type: spirit or undead

I'm not sure if this is possible, in NWN2 mechanics?

[Garn Greymoon]

Yea i'm not sure either. The way I'd almost see it is like a free custom feat for the DC suggestion vs. a specific monster sub group. I think you're spot on for the kit idea, if a player wants to build a for lack of a better name "spirit caller" they'd have spirit companions that are on par with what a druid gets or some of the necromancer / palemaster summons.

[kkrazlite]

- Mix up the spells from a combination of cleric / druid

Some wizard spells are also appropriate for it.

I don't think creating a spell list is easily doable in NWN2 though, so this isn't like an easy change to make.

If a spell list was doable, I've previously put together a concept list that I personally find the most appropriate. It's basically druid spell list plus thematically appropriate enchanting, divination, and undead spells from cleric/wizard, and a few miscellaneous others:

Hidden: show

0 Level: Cure Minor Wounds, Daze, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Dry, Flare, Light, Resistance, Rinse, Touch of Fatigue

1st Level: Animal Friendship, Camouflage, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Cure Light Wounds, Dancing Lights, Detect Undead, Endure Elements, Enrage Animal, Entangle, Extermination, Faerie Fire, Foundation of Stone, Lesser Vigor, Longstrider, Low-light Vision, Magic Fang, Magic Weapon, Pass Without a Trace, Remove Fear, Shillelagh, Sleep, Snake's Swiftness, Summon Creature I

2nd Level: Animalistic Power, Barkskin, Bear's Endurance, Body of the Sun, Brambles, Briar Web, Bull's Strength, Camouflage Mass, Cat's Grace, Creeping Cold, Dispel Magic Lesser, Eagle's Splendor, Echoes, Find Traps, Flame Weapon, Fox's Cunning, Frost Breath, Frost Weapon, Ghostly Visage, Gust of Wind, Halo of Sand, Healing Sting, Heartfire, Owl's Wisdom, Resist Energy, Restoration Lesser, Scare, See Invisibility, Shield Other, Silence, Snake's Swiftness Mass, Splinterbolt, Summon Creature II, Trip Vine, Whisper Wind

3rd Level: Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Blind Sight, Blindness/Deafness, Call Lightning, Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, Conjure Shadows, Contagion, Cure Moderate Wounds, Deathsight, Deep Slumber, Dehydrate, Detect Charm, Dominate Animal, Evil Eye, Heroism, Hypothermia, Invisibility Purge, Magic Fang Greater, Magic Weapon Greater, Mass Lesser Vigor, Neutralize Poison, Poison, Protection from Energy, Protection from Insects, Rage, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Searing Light, Spiderskin, Summon Creature III, Vampiric Touch, Vigor, Vine Mine

4th Level: Arc of Lightning, Charm Monster, Confusion, Crushing Despair, Cure Serious Wounds, Detect Scrying, Dismissal, Dispel Magic, Elemental Shield, Energy Buffer, Fear, Flame Strike, Freedom of Movement, Greater Creeping Cold, Greater Resistance, Hold Monster, Ice Storm, Moonbolt, Phantasmal Killer, Scrying, Stoneskin, Summon Creature IV, Tanglefoot, Trace Teleport, True Form, Unluck, Wall of Ice, Wall of Thorns, Wrack

5th Level: Awaken, Call Shadow Mastiffs, Commune with Nature, Call Lightning Storm, Cure Critical Wounds, Death Ward, Dominate Person, Ethereal Visage, Flaywind Burst, Heal Animal Companion, Inferno, Mass Contagion, Owl's Insight, Protection from Petrification, Rejuvenation Cocoon, Restoration, Sending, Slay Living, Spell Resistance, Summon Creature V, Wall of Fire

6th Level: Analyse Dweomer, Call Elementals, Chaos, Conjure Animals, Control Undead, Create Undead, Crumble, Cure Light Wounds Mass, Dispel Magic Greater, Drown, Energy Immunity, Extract Water Elemental, Gaseous Form, Greater Heroism, Greater Stoneskin, Find the Path, Fire Seeds, Legend Lore, Mass Bear's Endurance, Mass Bull's Strength, Mass Cat's Grace, Mass Owl's Wisdom, Primal Speed, Regenerate, Stonehold, Superior Resistance, Tortoise Shell, Undeath to Death, Vigorous Cycle, Wall of Stone

7th Level: Aura of Vitality, Banishment, Conjure Spiders, Creeping Doom, Cure Moderate Wounds Mass, Greater Scrying, Fire Storm, Harm, Heal, Hiss of Sleep, Solipsism, Summon Creature VII, Sunbeam, Swamp Lung, True Seeing

8th Level: Airball, Army of Death, Bombardment, Charm Monster Mass, Create Greater Undead, Cure Serious Wounds Mass, Deadly Lahar, Earthquake, Finger of Death, Greater Bestow Curse, Mass Blindness/Deafness, Phantom Wolf, Premonition, Storm Avatar, Summon Creature VIII, Sunburst, Whirlpool, Whirlwind

9th Level: Burst of Glacial Wrath, Cure Critical Wounds Mass, Dominate Monster, Elemental Swarm, Foresight, Mass Death Ward, Mass Drown, Nature's Avatar, Phantom Bear, Storm of Vengeance, Summon Creature IX, Weird

- If animal companions are a strong theme here, maybe they should be allowed to get a spirit companion that is equal to the druids but at a later level or if nothing else perhaps suffer a slight level penalty without all the heavy feat investments. The reason i say this is you still want some kind of class identity and druids sort of have the animal part cornered.

I feel a kit works best for this.

- lastly give the class a + DC / X levels vs. creature sub type: spirit or undead

I'm not sure if this is possible, in NWN2 mechanics?

I'm all honesty this list accually looks really good and good job on taking the time make it.

As for the spirit animal it would indeed be nice to get some sort of animal champanion alot of the buffs in the ss kit are centered toward having one but we do not get a viable one at all and tethlor is just. . . You know. . .